Episode 5 of More Like This features two legends of the same tribe: our co-host Delroy Lindo and our special guest Spike Lee. Lindo, who is the undeniable star of Da 5 Bloods, chats with Krista about everything from his preparation and execution of Paul alongside the dynamic cast, to his expansive career, forthcoming roles and books he's read during quarantine. Lindo’s 25-year collaborator and everyone’s signature director, Spike Lee, speaks with Moonlight’s visionary Barry Jenkins about the historical inspiration and creation of Da 5 Bloods and its cultural significance. There’s no better time than now.
Episode 5 of More Like This features two legends of the same tribe: our co-host Delroy Lindo and our special guest Spike Lee. Lindo, who is the undeniable star of Da 5 Bloods, chats with Krista about everything from his preparation and execution of Paul alongside the dynamic cast, to his expansive career, forthcoming roles and books he's read during quarantine. Lindo’s 25-year collaborator and everyone’s signature director, Spike Lee, speaks with Moonlight’s visionary Barry Jenkins about the historical inspiration and creation of Da 5 Bloods and its cultural significance. There’s no better time than now.
Krista Smith: [00:00:00] Welcome to More Like This, a podcast from Netflix Queue, the journal that celebrates the people, ideas, and process of creating great entertainment. I'm Krista Smith. I've spent over 20 years interviewing some of the biggest names in Hollywood. And on this show, I'm bringing you fresh new perspectives from across the entertainment industry, with the kind of access only Netflix can offer, but I won't be doing it alone.
I get to collaborate with some of the best writers, interviewers, [00:00:30] and experts in the business. My co-host this week is an absolute legend. One of the most consistent, talented, and revered actors in the business. Whether it's on stage or television or film, the man is brilliant and he is at the pinnacle of his career as Paul in Spike Lee's Da 5 Bloods. Please welcome Delroy Lindo. It's great to see you, Delroy.
Delroy Lindo: [00:00:54] Thank you.
Krista Smith: [00:00:55] What h-have you been reading or listening or watching anything in particular [00:01:00] in all this like, downtime when you're not working?
Delroy Lindo: [00:01:02] Wow I-I wish I'd known you were going to ask that question because I would have brought the pile of books that I've been reading with me so that I could remember their titles.
Currently, I'm reading a book called Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, which is a roiling, it's roiling me personally. I read a book called [00:01:30] In Search of the Racial Frontier by a man named Quintard Taylor. I read that book, and that book chronicles the history of African descended people in the American West going back, starting in the 1600's all the way through to the late 1970s.
I read that book in support of the film that I [00:02:00] just finished. The film is called The Harder They Fall and it is, the narrative focuses on, it's a tale of the old West told from the points of view of the black people who were there. African-Americans were a part of the old West, and that is a story that has not been told, generally speaking.
I played a man named [00:02:30] deputy US Marshal Bass Reeves. A man I had never heard of before I worked on the film, but an extremely, uh, significant and important person in the old West. And in fact, it is said that that The Lone Ranger is based on Bass Reeves.
Krista Smith: [00:02:50] Do you watch any television?
Delroy Lindo: [00:02:52] I've been watching, I'm a soccer fan. As a young kid, I played soccer. So I watch a lot of soccer [00:03:00] on TV while I'm working out.
Krista Smith: [00:03:01] Who's your team?
Delroy Lindo: [00:03:03] My team is Manchester United.
Krista Smith: [00:03:05] Oh, I'm Liverpool, so I'm a little disappointed in that.
Delroy Lindo: [00:03:09] We can't talk girl, we gotta, we gotta stop this interview right now, cause we're supposed to be arch-enemies. But anyhow, I want to go back really quickly, and I, I need to mention that one of the books that I read, um, In Search of the Racial Frontier.
Quintard Taylor's book was particularly significant to me for me [00:03:30] because it chronicles how enterprising black people in the old West were. And it also chronicled the relationship between African-Americans and Native Americans, and the forces that conspired against the ingenuity, the entrepreneurial spirit [00:04:00] of African-Americans caused a certain amount of destruction, which we, as African-Americans, African descended, people are still struggling with, negotiating with today.
When you think about things like, um, the Black Wall Street, which I'm sure you're aware of, which was burned to the ground by the white community. The Black Wall Street was a manifestation of [00:04:30] the entrepreneurial spirit and the ingenuity and the brilliance and the genius of African descended people to form their own communities and their own businesses, their own lives. And that's part of what Quintard Taylor is chronicling in, In Search of the Racial Frontier.
Krista Smith: [00:04:54] I appreciate that. Coming from Colorado, and I'm looking forward to seeing The Harder They Fall. I mean, it [00:05:00] also stars Regina King and Idris Elba. It's fantastic cast and that's on its way to Netflix.
Another book that you mentioned Caste by Isabella Wilkerson is being developed by Ava DuVernay for Netflix. So I'm super excited for, for both of them. But let's talk about Da 5 Bloods. For me, I grew up in a military family. Vietnam War was omnipresent, but what I, what I think is so important about this film is that for the [00:05:30] first time we see the humanity of black soldiers in Vietnam, which I don't think I've ever seen on screen, certainly in Plato- in certain movies, yes, there are black soldiers, but never a film where the story revolves around them and it revolves around their experience and their purview of what that experience was to be a black soldier in Vietnam.
And as a white woman watching that, [00:06:00] I was so struck by Spike's, the way he interwove what was happening in the real world and the use of music as in a whole other character in the film and the Hanoi Hannah and the mixing of the past and the present was just brilliant. It was incredible. And, and your character in particular, the complex nature of Paul was so interesting to me and I mean, I [00:06:30] hate to say this right now, especially, but it, I kind of understood why someone could be motivated and moved to be part of the MAGA moment by the disenfranchisement of what happened as a result of that war and a result of those soldiers coming back to the United States [00:07:00] and being treated as such.
So that is a lot of me talking, which I didn't intend to do, but-
Delroy Lindo: [00:07:06] I think it's very pertinent that you talked as much as you did. Please finish.
Krista Smith: [00:07:11] Well, I was so struck by your performance, particularly in the humanity that you brought to that character. I think it's one of the greatest Spike Lee characters, and I should note that I am not the only one that responded as such. You've, you've gotten, you know, a [00:07:30] lot of, of outside recognition as well from National Board Review, New York Crits, you know, the, the critics, Herschel, and what not you've, you've already cumulated a significant amount of a-awards for this performance. So talk to me a little bit about just your approach when you first got that script and your way in as an actor and also your way in after, you know, two decades of, of, of getting back with Spike, I'd be really interested to hear your perspective.
Delroy Lindo: [00:07:58] Sure. [00:08:00] Before I, um, respond to your question. The first thing you mentioned was the humanity. And that is like, for me, like mana from heaven, because it, it is, it is exactly what I feel one of the strengths of this film is, and that is, it presents these men in their humanity. Does that make [00:08:30] sense?
Krista Smith: [00:08:31] Mhm.
Delroy Lindo: [00:08:31] Secondly, and I did not think you were talking too much because you, as the audience, you are pulling from various bits, areas of yourself and the various responses that it elicited, which is exactly, exactly what one wants as an actor contributing to a piece of work. [00:09:00] That's exactly what one wants, to ignite and fire off all of these responses to the point where, oh God, I feel like I'm talking too much. No, you're not. Because listening to you, I'm thinking this is exactly what I would desire from an audience member.
And I don't want to come across as obsequious right now, but listening to you as an audience member [00:09:30] touch on the various places inside of you that the film connected with. It's affirming and it's affirming and it's affirming and it's affirming and it's affirming some more. Now to the last part of your question and Paul. You said that you could understand why Paul becomes that MAGA hat wearing person.
What more could I, as an actor ask for than [00:10:00] to be understood by an audience member, even if we vehemently disagree with the choice that that particular human being has made. You as an audience member, understand it. So without being big headed about this, I've done my job. I've served the narrative in the way that, um, my director, [00:10:30] writer wants and needs me to serve the narrative.
And, you know I've done various interviews with Spike in service of this film over the last year, eight months, nine months. And I've come to understand, and I didn't know this about Spike, this cat has an ex- what I call an encyclopedic brain, meaning his ability to reference and recall and connect with [00:11:00] history and culture in the particular way that he does, and he then feeds that into his work.
And here's the other piece. Going back to zeitgeist. Of course, none of us could have predicted George Floyd. None of us could have predicted Ahmaud Arbery, uh, Breonna Taylor, none of us could have predicted that, but it also speaks to something about Spike's intent [00:11:30] as a storyteller that causes him in some instances, not all the time necessarily, but in some instances to be a step ahead of the culture, to be a step ahead of the zeitgeist. So now a year later, the film comes out, and the film lands squarely in the middle of the zeitgeist. Not only in America, but globally. And that speaks to the particular way that he makes work, how he puts [00:12:00] work together, and feeds it back to audiences. I just talked for a long time. I hope that made sense.
Krista Smith: [00:12:07] It-it does make sense. And it, to me, it's what delineates a Spike Lee film from all other films. It's what makes him an autour. Delroy. We're going to come back later to talk more about your experience on Da 5 Bloods, but this feels like a perfect segue into the next segment of the podcast. Spike Lee in [00:12:30] conversation with another acclaimed filmmaker, Barry Jenkins.
We are blessed to have not only Spike Lee, but also Academy award winning director of Moonlight, Barry Jenkins to interview him. The two discussed all things Da 5 Bloods from ideation to inception, musical influences, and beyond. Here's their conversation brought to you by the American Cinematheque.
[00:13:00] Berry Jenkins: [00:13:01] I mean, let me, it's just me and you. Let me give you a round of applause, man. I watched the film this week, man. It's so, uh, it's so beautiful and heavy at the same time. And also, um, just, uh, it's amazing cause I-I remember when you left to make this film and yet it arrives at this moment, um, and I think it's perfectly in sync with what's going on, um, out in the streets, you know.
Spike Lee: [00:13:23] My brother, you know how we do.
Berry Jenkins: [00:13:26] Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Spike Lee: [00:13:27] You know how we do.
Berry Jenkins: [00:13:28] I-I wanted to [00:13:30] start off on a, on a different foot, you know, I remember, uh, when you, uh, you know, we were both at the Oscars when you won for BlacKkKlansman deservedly. And I remember seeing you at the party- at the party that night. And, uh, it was,
Spike Lee: [00:13:42] Which, which party?
Berry Jenkins: [00:13:43] Uh, you know, I don't, I don't want to be dropping names, but, but the party and, uh, and it was you, you and Regina, y'all both had y'all Oscars, y'all were dancing and you were like, shit, man, I gotta get on a plane tomorrow. You know, cause you were going to make, uh this film. I think you were flying directly to Ho Chi Minh City.
Spike Lee: [00:13:59] No, [00:14:00] we, uh, I was going to Bangkok.
Berry Jenkins: [00:14:02] You were going to Bangkok, exactly. But you, you but you were definitely goin to work on it-
Spike Lee: [00:14:05] Next morning. The morning. So I didn't even, I didn't even go to bed. I packed my bags before. true story.
Berry Jenkins: [00:14:12] W-w-well, and it's funny watching the film because again, the subject matter, uh, is so heavy.
And yet, you know, I think I've always known you as someone who loves cinema and it seemed to me like you had a really good time making this film, despite it being so heavy. And I swear, I mean, I might be [00:14:30] making shit up, but the same energy you had that night, you had the Oscar in one hand you have the, you know, the artist formerly known as Symbol in the one hand, and I feel all that same energy in the film.
So just tell me about, you know, what, I want to know how the project got off the ground, how you came into it, but, but just the feeling of making it, man, because it seems like there's a lot, uh of you and, and your, your reckoning with, uh, with the, uh, with the idea of America and what some of these uh, some of these men went through, [00:15:00] but also just the energy of the moment that you find yourself in right now.
Spike Lee: [00:15:03] Well, I want to thank you for doing this, that's number one.
Berry Jenkins: [00:15:06] A pleasure man.
Spike Lee: [00:15:07] So the story is this, two writers, Danny [Bilson], and, uh, and Paul De Meo, they wrote this script on spec, was picked up by Lloyd 11 and he gave it to Oliver Stone. It was called the last tour. And four other, [00:15:30] the Vietnam vets were white, one was black. Oliver decided not to do it. Lloyd read a article in The Guardian where I was talking about the treas- The Treasure of Sierra Madre, call me up. I loved the script, but I said, you know you're gonna have to flip it. You know, this, I w- if I'm going to do this, if you want me to do this, I have to tell this to the, the viewpoint of African-American Vietnam vets. [00:16:00] Brought my guy, my co-writer Kevin Willmott, and we, uh, put some hot sauce on it, slow clap, you know? And, uh, the key thing though is that Marvin Gaye.
Berry Jenkins: [00:16:17] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:16:18] And Marvin's older brother did three tours in Vietnam.
Berry Jenkins: [00:16:23] Wow.
Spike Lee: [00:16:24] He was a radio operator. So he's writing Marvin. He was- [00:16:30] Marvin was reading firsthand accounts of what his brother was seeing. War is hell, when will it end?
Also Martin was seeing the bloods come back to h- to Detroit and Motown. They're all fucked up, many on heroin. So I think those things really led to him to a place to where that the album is. And so, Ryan White knew he wanted the songs because that would be another [00:17:00] character.
Berry Jenkins: [00:17:01] I want to, I want to talk about Kevin for a little bit, man.
Spike Lee: [00:17:04] Yeah.
Berry Jenkins: [00:17:04] Because y'all, y'all- you're just kind of back to back right now.
Spike Lee: [00:17:07] Yeah his uh, third. It was his project, I co-wrote it uh, Chi-Raq then we co-wrote BlacKkKlansman and uh, this is the third one. So we're both tenured professors of film. He's a tenured film professor at University of Kansas Jayhawk.
Berry Jenkins: [00:17:28] Okay.
Spike Lee: [00:17:29] And I'm a [00:17:30] tenured professor at NYU graduate film school. So we, we we're, we're cinophiles, and we love movies. We will also understand how there's been a lot of false narratives in films and, uh, given opportunity, you know, we try to, uh, shed some like, some light on that darkness that's been out there for many, many years. If you remember, the opening of uh, [00:18:00] BlacKkKlansman is from the one is from the, one of the greatest shots ever in cinema, with Scarlett O'Hara. And I want to jump at that, I mean, I think that film should be seen. I, I show Birth of a Nation. In my class.
Berry Jenkins: [00:18:17] I have heard.
Spike Lee: [00:18:17] But I also, I also put it and give it a historical, still through context. And when they screened that film for me at NYU, they left out the fact that at that time, the klan was dormant. [00:18:30] And this film brought life back to the klan, which directly ended up killing black folks. But that was not taught.
Berry Jenkins: [00:18:41] Well, it-it kind of leads me to me into uh, Delroy's character in this film. Uh, Paul, who famously he wears the hat, he wears the MAGA hat, that he's a, that he's a Trump supporter, uh, in the film. But, what I love that you do, and it kind of feeds into this conversation we're having is you create the context of how a man like that could become that person.
[00:19:00] And and so, um, I'm curious if at this point, as you're putting, cause you know, when I watch a Spike film, I'm always expecting a button to be pressed. Always expecting a button to be pressed. No matter who walks in, somebody's buttons is getting pressed. So, the character Paul was not in the original piece I imagine. So-
Spike Lee: [00:19:17] No he, no no, he did- Paul's in it, but he wasn't a- the script was written before agent orange got in the White House. So it was Kevin and I that, that did that that did the whole thing because here's, well the reason [00:19:30] why they did that's because their bond, I mean when you're when you're in a war and a battle, that bond is like, you can't break it.
But when they came back to, to the world from the country, everybody went their separate ways. So this is the first time they've all been together. And so my mother told me at very young age that all black people are not one monolithic group. So, [00:20:00] I mean all, I mean, it's a buddy film, but still you got to have some beef, some static, you know, just for, just for drama. We said, what's the, what's the wildest thing we can do?
And this is a guy who's never got a break in his life. Never. His wife dies giving childbirth, [00:20:30] which consequently he's hated, he's blamed his son, and it's tormented his son his whole life. When you're like that, it's it's it's everybody- some other people are the reason why I'm I'm messed up, that's what we did.
Berry Jenkins: [00:20:49] I want to go back to my first question. Did you have fun making this film? And just tell me-
Spike Lee: [00:20:53] A lot, a lot of fun, but it was hard.
Berry Jenkins: [00:20:55] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:20:56] There were- days were rare when it wasn't [00:21:00] a hundred degrees plus we're shooting in a jungle, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia mosquitoes ain't got nothing Thailand. [Laughs]
And jungles have snakes.
Berry Jenkins: [00:21:18] Mhm, mhm.
Spike Lee: [00:21:20] So we had a bonafide snake handler whose job was to keep us from being bitten by venomous [00:21:30] snakes. But we all knew that, but we we were just, we knew we had to, we had do, we were, they were professionals, no matter what, we had to do what we had to do.
Berry Jenkins: [00:21:41] At this point, you can, I-I feel like you pick and choose. You only do the things that you truly want to do. Um, I want to tell a personal story first, but then I want, I want you to answer, like, why this film? Why a film about black Vietnam vets? Cause I mean, you and I both know it takes a lot to make a film, man. I mean to go to [00:22:00] damn Bangkok and deal with a hundred degrees and, and Vipers and all that takes a, it takes a lot, you know, you got to go away from your family and you know, you, you, you you're-
Spike Lee: [00:22:08] I was gone three months.
Berry Jenkins: [00:22:09] Exactly. Exactly. So, so my, uh, uh, my first experience with PTSD was I had an uncle who fought in Vietnam, uh, and he went and saw with uh, with a cousin of mine, I think it was Return of the Jedi or something. And my cousin said about the second reel of the film, my uncle crawled down on the [00:22:30] floor, and was crouching down behind the seats, trying to dodge the lights- the-the-the light flashes.
And my cousin had to like cradle him and walk him out of the theater. That was the first time I understood that there was something that had happened to these men that hadn't been dealt with, that hadn't been sort of addressed. And so when, I, when, I, when I first started seeing clips of Delroy's performance, I saw my uncle, I saw my uncle. And then before even, even seeing the film, [00:23:00] I started to think, I think this is why Spike went and made this film. But I wanted to ask you, why did you decide to go make this film bruh?
Spike Lee: [00:23:08] Well, i-is your uncle still alive with us?
Berry Jenkins: [00:23:10] No he's passed, man he's passed. He passed.
Spike Lee: [00:23:13] Oh, God bless. God bless. I'm on Inst- I'm on Instagram. And so many people have told me a story- have written me on their comments stuff that's very similar to what you just said, [00:23:30] that their father, their uncle, their cousin, their brother, they saw Paul and it made them help- um, it it didn't make it go away with a, made them understand a little bit better of what they were going through. I-I was born in nine- March 20th, 1957, the first day of spring. The Vietnam War was the first war that was televised into [00:24:00] American homes, living rooms.
So I was 10 years old. So I saw a lot of the footage that is in the film, I saw the first time it was on t- on television. And I grew up with my, my late brother and I in New York, Brooklyn. We would just always watch Saturdays after watching after we finished watching cartoons, we'd watch World War II films and we loved them.
And my [00:24:30] father would say, you sell- kay, you like those films, but I'm telling you, black people fought in World War II. And his, my father was not in World War II because he had flat feet, but his two brothers were in world war. They, they, they were patent. They were an outfit that, that, that drove the trucks to keep pants arnold.
Berry Jenkins: [00:24:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The -with the-the snake, the Bibles and snake eyes, they'd call them, cause they, they take the [00:25:00] headlights and flip them. Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:25:01] Cause they had the, they had to drive at night without lights. Uh, so I was taught early on about Christmas addicts, about my parents.
Berry Jenkins: [00:25:15] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:25:16] The first person to die for the United States of America, the Revolutionary War, Boston Massacre. That's a fact, the first person that died, but his country was a black [00:25:30] man and, and, and, and brother- and our brothers and sisters had been fighting for this country, from the get. I didn't, I never heard of Milton Olive till I started doing research.
Berry Jenkins: [00:25:40] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:25:42] Brother was 18 years old.
Berry Jenkins: [00:25:44] T-T-That was a new one for me, bro.
Spike Lee: [00:25:46] Threw himself on a grenade. Won the metal of honor, first African-American they get the metal of honor in Vietnam. 18 years old. And for me, that was the best thing I ever did as far as [00:26:00] foreshadowing, because Isaiah is, I, they're talking about, you know, this other stuff. A-and and Isaiah says, do not expect me- [inaudible] no one's asked you to jump on a grenade.
Berry Jenkins: [00:26:17] But, but, but, you might know- but, but, but I think they're taking this journey together, you just know bruh, you just know that thing hit the ground, he gonna do it. Talk to me about working with Delroy after, you know, y'all have done so many films together. It's been a bit since y'all [00:26:30] worked together.
He's a, I mean, he just, I mean, Lulu would tell you at a certain point, I wouldn't. I grabbed my Oscar in the next room and I just put it in front of the TV. I just put it in front of them. That he's so damn good in the movie, man. He's so damn good in the movie. Uh, but did you have him in mind when you and Kevin were re-restructuring the character?
Spike Lee: [00:26:47] Yeah, we had and, and until the other day, til uh, my brother told me, it's been 25 years since we worked together. The first time [00:27:00] was Malcolm X West Indian Archie. And he played my real life father.
Berry Jenkins: [00:27:05] Mm, that's right.
Spike Lee: [00:27:06] Bill Lee in Crooklyn. And then he was a drug kingpin, gangster in Clockers. He's one of the great, great, great actors. And a lot of people might like, be like, well, where are you-
He's been, Delroy has been putting in work. W E R K werk. And, and [00:27:30] as you know, my brother. You'll be putting in the work, but sometimes you need that role.
Berry Jenkins: [00:27:37] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:27:38] You need that, that platform, that showcase. I mean, you need like even a scene cause everybody talks about that scene. You know, he's going to jungle, chopping down shit left and right with his machete, looking straight into the camera. And I'm happy for him [00:28:00] because, um, he's worked uh, uh, a long time and he's finally getting his shine, getting his light. And it's been long overdue, I think.
Berry Jenkins: [00:28:14] Yeah. Agreed. Agree. I think he was also in Clockers, he's amazing in clockers.
Spike Lee: [00:28:19] Yeah. He played a drug kingpin.
Berry Jenkins: [00:28:20] Amazing in Clockers, amazing in Clockers, you know, again, that was, that was a, that was a different time, a different world because you put that performance up against anything [00:28:30] that year and I mean just um, when he grabbed homeboy by the, you grabbed him-
Spike Lee: [00:28:33] In the car?
Berry Jenkins: [00:28:34] -By the ribs. Yeah, man.
Spike Lee: [00:28:36] [Inaudible]
Berry Jenkins: [00:28:38] Yeah, exactly. It's it's funny cause in this film, he's, he's a very broken man, still very strong but very broken, uh, and Clockers, you know, kind of similar but, but way different man, way different.
Spike Lee: [00:28:50] Nah this is another level.
Berry Jenkins: [00:28:51] But what else you wanna talk about? Talk about, talk to me about Terence Blanchard, man. The, uh, the, the, the aria in this piece, it r- it did remind me of a bit of, uh, what y'all did [00:29:00] in 25th Hour, which I mean, so, so much of your work is about America, you know, but it's about redefining what America is the feeling of it. Talk to me about how you and Terence approached the score for this one.
Spike Lee: [00:29:11] Well, Terrence has been- a lot of people know this. Terrence was working on, was playing in my father's scores first. Great jazz trumpeter. Great, great composer for film and we have a shorthand, you know, we don't have to talk a lot.
[00:29:30] Berry Jenkins: [00:29:30] Yeah.
Spike Lee: [00:29:31] He gets the script as soon as everybody gets, gets the script. While we're editing, he gets scenes cut together. Once they have a cut, he flies up from New Orleans, we screen the film. Then we go out for lunch, and then, then we sit down at the Avid. And I tell him, you know where I think I want to have cues where the cue will start and where, whereit will end. And also when I [00:30:00] want to describe what it is, I use, I, uh, we talk in colors.
Every instrument is a different color. And and and a thing that I love, I love to give characters themes, with great melodies and Terrence got great melodies up the yang yang, but the, the, the Paul melody in this one, man, it just, um, it just gets inside you, man. It, it makes you- this [00:30:30] character that maybe in other hands you would grow to hate.
You know, as he gets farther and farther away from
himself-
Berry Jenkins: [00:30:35] Especially wearing that hat.
Spike Lee: [00:30:36] Exactly, exactly, exactly. As he gets farther and farther away from himself, you pro- to the point that when the hat shows up, no spoiler, when the hat shows up at the end, you like, you kind of want to just, it feels like it's like a lament.
Berry Jenkins: [00:30:50] You know what I mean? Instead of going, oh, that fucking hat. I go, oh shit, it's the hat. You know what I mean? So kudos to y'all. So, so, so let me ask Man, where is it, where else is it for Spike [00:31:00] Lee to go, man? I mean-
Spike Lee: [00:31:02] I'm never- I'm going to answer your question.
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:03] Yes, sir.
Spike Lee: [00:31:04] I've never done a musical before.
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:07] Uh, shit. Other than Good and Bad Hair, yeah that's true.
Spike Lee: [00:31:09] I mean, I've had musical sequences in my film, but uh, not done a straight out dancing and singing musical. So, I think,
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:19] Who knows?
Spike Lee: [00:31:20] I think we should rectify that, bruh. We, you know what? This is the longest we've ever talked.
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:27] It is man,
it is. Cause it's always you [00:31:30] going this way, I'm going that way. It's always love bruh.
Spike Lee: [00:31:34] Once we get to the other side-
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:35] Yes sir.
Spike Lee: [00:31:36] AC at the- not after Christ, but after Corona.
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:40] Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Spike Lee: [00:31:42] We got to chop it up, baby.
Berry Jenkins: [00:31:43] All right. Cool. Cool. Cool. Appreciate ya Spike.
Krista Smith: [00:31:53] Always amazing to hear two artists at the top of their games, you know, what I thought was so interesting is [00:32:00] that the two of them have never talked this long before. They've only kind of seen each other in passing and it just was so great to be a fly on the wall for this conversation.
Okay Delroy, let's dig a little deeper into your experience working on this film. As an actor, what was one of the most physically challenging things for you during the filmmaking of Da 5 Bloods, because it seemed real hot, [00:32:30] jungle, like it's a very physical, I mean, aside from just the elements of, of heat and bugs and all that I'm sure, it's a very physical performance.
Delroy Lindo: [00:32:40] So interesting. Um, um, what I thought about was a very specific instance when I fall down the hill and the, and the goal gets stuck in the tree. I told Spike that I wanted to, I wanted to do the, um, the stunt myself and [00:33:00] in preparing to do that particular stunt, I was doing some exercise, I was doing cartwheels and I was rolling on the ground, and I messed up my shoulder. [Laughs] That was physically challenging.
Krista Smith: [00:33:19] So you, you already messed up your shoulder before you even before he said action, which is impressive.
Delroy Lindo: [00:33:27] I didn't do the stuff. Uh, Spike said, no, man, you don't [00:33:30] want to do this. I said, no, man, let me, let me, let me try it. I want to try it man. More broadly when we were in Thailand and we had to traverse up and down some of those hills and we, we were doing multiple takes.
There were a couple of times in the film where the physical endurance, the challenge kind of caught up with me. Not to the point where I couldn't do the work, but to the point where I needed to preserve my energy as much as I could, [00:34:00] so that when the cameras did start rolling, I had the energy so that I could do what I needed to do in front of the camera.
The last couple of weeks of filming, we were actually in Vietnam. Um, and I remember the night that we wrapped, we had a little get together, and I was aware of how fatigued I was. Not exhausted, but I was mentally, physically, [00:34:30] psychologically fatigued.
Krista Smith: [00:34:32] Hmm. Let's talk about your cast too, because that's one of the things for me, Spike Lee as well, always assembles, such an interesting cast.
Delroy Lindo: [00:34:41] Yeah.
Krista Smith: [00:34:42] And this one is, is no exception. Obviously Chadwick is, is a central character in in the narration of this film. It's Norm Lewis, Clark Peters, Jonathan Majors, who plays your son.
Delroy Lindo: [00:34:57] And Isiah Whitlock Jr.
Krista Smith: [00:34:58] And right, [00:35:00] Isiah.
Delroy Lindo: [00:35:01] Oh man. What made the interpersonal dynamics between us all the more special for me was, and I think for all of us, it was completely organic. Again, frankly, that's part of Spike's genius. Bringing us together for a couple of- couple of weeks prior to filming, we did a bootcamp with some military [00:35:30] advisors. We- he had a couple of young men come from New York. And they taught us the dap. You know what dap is?
The various intricate handshakes that a lot of the brothers in in nam, uh, used. In additional to that we had a couple of Vietnam vets come and speak with us all as a company, the core company, including Jonathan, as my son. All of those things [00:36:00] nurtured and helped give birth to this, this organic way of being that we all developed.
And of course we were aided by the words on the page, the fact that we had this script, and it was one of the most special aspects of working with these particular actors. That we just came together in the way that we did and this organic bond, these bonds were created, [00:36:30] which we then were able to exhibit in front of the camera.
I'm sure you know, that doesn't come along every day. One can work with really skilled actors, but to have a real organic connection inside of the work that nobody has to talk about is very special. And I would say that to greater or lesser degrees that is, that has been present in all of the work that I've done with Spike.
There is a [00:37:00] connection that is, that comes into existence as a result of the actors that Spike Lee brings together in service of the work. That was absolutely evident on Malcolm X. Everybody knew on Malcolm X we had to bring our a game. Everybody knew on Malcolm X, bring it, bring it. Completely unspoken, bring it. Because of the respect that we have [00:37:30] for Malcolm, because of the respect we have for the, the script itself.
And we knew how important a piece of work, how important the film, this was going to be. But jumping ahead to, to bloods, I feel similarly a really, really, really important piece of work because we were presenting these men in their humanity that you, that you spoke about because the Vietnam story has never been told from the standpoint of brothers, of black, uh, of the black [00:38:00] soldiers who were there, who made up what, African Americans, um, 12% of the, um, the population, and upwards of 30% of the fighting force in Vietnam.
Kids, young kids. My cousin was 18 years old when he was drafted into Vietnam and inside the first week and a half he's in country fighting. 18. I have a son who's 19 years old. Now, I cannot imagine sending [00:38:30] him off to war. So, uh, in service of all those young men whose stories have not been told, this film was critically important, critically important that we, that we, that we get it right.
We had a birthday party back in the summer for my son. And one of my son's friends came to me and said, Mr. Lindo, when I saw the film, I have an uncle and we all thought he was crazy and nobody wanted to be around him, but when I saw the [00:39:00] film, I said, oh, that's my uncle. I understand my uncle now. You can't, you can't buy that kind of affirmation.
That's priceless. Krista, that's why I went to acting school.
Krista Smith: [00:39:17] Hmm. What did you learn about yourself as an actor in this part in particular?
Delroy Lindo: [00:39:25] On some level it was almost as if everything that [00:39:30] I have done up to this point in my career perhaps was preparing me for Paul. So if I learned anything, it's that with all of the missteps that I have made in my career, with all of my neuroses, my fear, like just playing craziness.
Um, with all of that, you did good, [00:40:00] kid. You did good, man. With all of that, you still did good. And I had f'd up. On my- God knows I've f'd up. I've made missteps, but you know what? Evidently I was equal to this moment. When I was presented with this moment, I was equal to it. I was ready.
Krista Smith: [00:40:27] It's so moving to hear you speak in that, in that [00:40:30] way.
And also what's so unique to me about your career and just you admitting that you've had mistakes and you've got, and you've gotten in your own way, despite the fact that you've worked for 30 years, and despite the fact that you are never the same in any movie, uh, and that's very unique for, uh, not all actors have that.
And I'm curious, at this point in your career in Hollywood sitting in the seat that you sit in, do you feel like there is a genuine [00:41:00] movement to see more stories told, more diversity, more, y-you know, different stories told about different people. And not just- obviously Spike has done that, you know, tremendously in his career.
But in general, you're talking about a m- making a movie about black cowboys and, and also, do you feel like there is more representation coming? Do you feel like there's a genuine, uh, movement to make this happen?
Delroy Lindo: [00:41:27] Only time will tell. [00:41:30] And I'm not being coy in saying that I'm not trying to be coy.
Only time will tell. And I say that because, for a variety of reasons, but I remember the year that Denzel Washington won best actor and Halle Berry won best actress, and that moment was being lauded as perhaps the beginning of something. But somebody said, well, [00:42:00] no, not necessarily. All this means that this year, Denzel, Washington and Halle Berry won best actor and best actress.
That's what it means. So here we are upwards of 20 years later and you're asking me the same question. The thing about the film that I just did about- about the black cowboys. That's also a black filmmaker who's intensely, passionately dedicated to telling that story. [00:42:30] So, if there are more filmmakers, filmmakers of color, female filmmakers.
Each of whom are passionately, insanely dedicated to telling stories that represent either their portion of humanity or looking at humanity through the prison- uh, prism of their experiences, people of [00:43:00] color, women in all of their humanity. If that happens, then perhaps we will then have stories that are more, we will have a more diverse palette, but-
Krista Smith: [00:43:14] Hmm.
Delroy Lindo: [00:43:15] Sitting here now, you asking me that question? I can only say that I hope so, but only time will tell.
Krista Smith: [00:43:28] Delroy, now it's time [00:43:30] for you to give some advice. What would you tell young people starting out in the business today?
Delroy Lindo: [00:43:36] Whatever you need to do to be ready, do it. Don't get caught napping because a lot of people are going to say no to you. There going to s- there are going to be more people who say no to you in your career than say yes. So critically important that you, in the face of all these [00:44:00] other entities and people saying no to you, it's critically important that a, you say yes to yourself and b, you construct your life, your work, however you form your work ethic, whatever ethos you develop for yourself, do all of the things that are, that are humanly possible for you to do so that when, and if you get that one shot, you're ready.
[00:44:30] Krista Smith: [00:44:30] Delroy, thank you so much for your time. I've enjoyed every second of this. And you are such a great listener. I don't think I've ever talked to an actor that is a better listener than yourself.
Delroy Lindo: [00:44:40] Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Krista Smith: [00:44:42] And congratulations on, on the film, all the success that you're having with it, and I can't wait always to see what's next for you, but I really appreciate the time.
Delroy Lindo: [00:44:54] God bless. Thank you very much.
Krista Smith: [00:44:57] Da [00:45:00] 5 Bloods is streaming now on Netflix. For more, head over to NetflixQueue.com. That's Netflix, Q U E U E dot com, and follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, review, and share. Listen, in next time for more like this.