Krista Smith is joined by our special co-host Rashida Jones on Episode 3 of More Like This, exploring the themes of survival, strength and humanity from a director’s point of view. The legendary George Clooney details his post-apocalyptic film The Midnight Sky, while the celebrated George C. Wolfe sits with Branford Marsalis and discusses all things Ma Rainey. Finally, Will McCormack converses with Jones, his longtime creative partner, to dissect his short film taking TikTok by storm - If Anything Happens, I Love You. Save your tears for the credits.
Krista Smith is joined by our special co-host Rashida Jones on Episode 3 of More Like This, exploring the themes of survival, strength and humanity from a director’s point of view. The legendary George Clooney details his post-apocalyptic film The Midnight Sky, while the celebrated George C. Wolfe sits with Branford Marsalis and discusses all things Ma Rainey. Finally, Will McCormack converses with Jones, his longtime creative partner, to dissect his short film taking TikTok by storm - If Anything Happens, I Love You. Save your tears for the credits.
[00:00:00] Krista Smith: Welcome to “More Like This,” a podcast from “Netflix Queue,” the journal that celebrates the people, ideas and process of creating great entertainment. I'm Krista Smith. I've spent over 20 years interviewing some of the biggest names in Hollywood. And on this show, I'm bringing you fresh new perspectives from across the entertainment industry, with the kind of access only Netflix can offer, but I won't be doing it alone.
[00:00:26] I get to collaborate with some of the best writers, interviewers, and experts in the business. My co-host this week is the phenomenal writer, actress, producer, director, who also happens to have a genius knack for comedy; Rashida Jones. Welcome to our show. Rashida.
[00:00:43] Rashida Jones: Thanks Krista. It's nice to be here.
[00:00:45] Krista Smith: How's it been going in quarantine for you?
[00:00:48] Rashida Jones: Fine. I'm not sure I'm like the fresh perspective you were looking for, but my new term is status quo-vid.
[00:00:54] Krista Smith: Yeah[laughs]
[00:00:57] Rashida Jones: Has a ring.
[00:00:58] Krista Smith: Yeah, it definitely has a ring. I mean, I think you are a fresh perspective to be honest, you know, because. I think about when I met you however many years ago, you were only one thing. You were just an actress and now--
[00:01:12] Rashida Jones: Not in my heart, I wasn’t. [laughs]
[00:01:15] Krista Smith: [laughs] And now you're all over the place,
[00:01:16] Rashida Jones: I’m all over the place.
[00:01:17] Krista Smith: It's incredible what you've done. And now you have your own podcast with Bill Gates, by the way.
[00:01:22] Rashida Jones: I do. I do. Yes.
[00:01:23] Krista Smith: What was Bill Gates like?
[00:01:27] Rashida Jones: He is great. He's really, he's really smart. Shocker. You heard it here first. He's very clear. He's like I made a lot of money.
[00:01:37] I have more money than any one person should ever have. I will donate 95% of my wealth to, you know, helping alleviate other people's suffering before I die. He also likes to talk about how you get there and the kind of like philosophical things that kind of surround that. He's super interesting. I'm like, I feel like I'm still getting to know him, but he's an enjoyable person to have a conversation with.
[00:02:04] Krista Smith: So is there anything you've been reading or watching lately that you've been super into? Have you seen “Mank” yet?
[00:02:12] Rashida Jones: I've seen “Mank.” I loved “Mank.” I consider myself a friend of – an F.O.F., a Friend Of Fincher. I'm not saying he would consider himself my friend, but I think he would. Uh, but anyway, he had asked me to, to watch it before it came out and he just asked me kind of like logic questions and stuff, but I absolutely loved it.
[00:02:31] I wanted it to go on for five hours.
[00:02:32] Krista Smith: Same.
[00:02:33] Rashida Jones: It was so charming.
[00:02:34] Krista Smith: Oh, I've seen it three times now.
[00:02:37] Rashida Jones: Don't you just want to be there?
[00:02:38] Krista Smith: So want to be there? I forget about your movie with “Social Network.”
[00:02:42] Rashida Jones: Yes. Yes. I was in “Social Net-“ I have a small part in “Social Network” and I absorbed every single minute of being in that movie.
[00:02:50] Because from the minute I read that script, that Aaron Sorkin script to the minute I was cast to the minute I was on set, I felt like I was part of something that would stand the test of time in a huge way, creatively and culturally and all this stuff. And so I just, I milked every minute I stood behind Fincher while he was directing.
[00:03:10] When, you know, when I wasn't being too annoying, I, I just milked every minute.
[00:03:15] Krista Smith: And that movie still holds up. Later on in the show. We're going to be bringing on your ride or die. Your bestie, your creative husband, I guess, for lack of a better word Will McCormack. And it feels like. You two together collectively found this voice that has led you to so many incredible successes and obviously to form your company, Le Train Train, and now you guys have this short film that's out called,
[00:03:46] “If Anything Happens, I Love You.” And we will talk about that obviously later on in the show when, when he's here, but tell me about that partnership with the two of you?
[00:03:57] Rashida Jones: Well, Will and I were destined for each other. We can't, we can't shake each other. We don't want to shake each other, but we can't shake each other because now we're going on…
[00:04:06] Oh my God. 21 years. Wait? Is that right? 21 years. Wow. So, we would have either had an adult child or like a production company at this point. And I think, I think we're good. I think the production company was the right call for us. Not that, not the divorce co-parenting.
[00:04:29] Krista Smith: Wow. That's incredible. Uh, speaking of knowing someone a long time, um, I got to interview George Clooney, so he has a new movie coming out, “The Midnight Sky” and he is literally the “Last Of The Mohicans.”
[00:04:43] Talk about a movie star. Talk about someone that just puts his money, where his mouth is. Between his like charity, the philanthropic work, obviously, the television shows the films, the friends, the like, I don't know. He's just, it he's like old school.
[00:05:02] Rashida Jones: He’s it. He is so it, he is the epitome of a class act, everything he approaches, whether it be, you know, socializing or caring about other people or creating things, he just knows who he is.
[00:05:16] He's generous. He's consistent. He's like just a delight every time I see. I don't know him that well, but every time I see him, I have just the nicest exchange with him. He's so funny. So appropriate. He's so humble. And he's so hardworking. He's a real… He's a lege, he's a legend.
[00:05:33] Krista Smith: He's a legend. He really is. Um, I'm so glad we have him. That's how I felt when I talked to him.
[00:05:39] Rashida Jones: He is you're right. There's not a lot like him. There’s just not.
[00:05:44] Krista Smith: George Clooney joined me to discuss his new movie, “The Midnight Sky” based on the novel, “Good morning, Midnight” by Lily Brooks-Dalton. “The Midnight Sky” is about the aftermath of a global catastrophe.
[00:05:56] And alone scientist in the Arctic racing to contact a crew of astronauts and warn them not to return to earth. Clooney directs, produces, and also stars in the film alongside his young costar, Caoilinn Springall, and the rest of an extraordinary cast.
[00:06:16] I'm just going to get right into it. And I want to know about what spoke to you about this film. And this character that you wanted to make it, that you had this sense of urgency to make this film,
[00:06:30] George Clooney: it's hard to find a really good script. This was a great script and it was a story I thought about redemption.
[00:06:37] In a way that, you know, I kind of look at Clint when he did unforgiven in a way where it's sort of coming to terms with aging and coming to terms with the world in the, in the, uh, in this, in the place, in the way that we are in the, at the time, you know, there was no pandemic, but we were still dealing with ideas of hatred and anger.
[00:06:59] And if you play that out over a 20-year period of time, it's not inconceivable that we end up in the same place that we are in this film. So I thought those were really interesting themes to address. And I really love the idea of the challenge of space and the Arctic. I thought that those were taking on two of the more difficult things to do in one film.
[00:07:21] And I, and I just, you know, for whatever reason, you know, when I first read it, I thought, well, it's a great part for me. I felt like there's probably not a whole lot of people at this age who could play the part, you know, there aren't that many actors who are right for this one. And I was so I thought, okay, well, that's good.
[00:07:41] And then I, you know, I had a take on the movie. I had a point of view that I thought would be interesting and I didn't want it to ever fall into being a teaching moment or preachy. I thought it was just a story of redemption.
[00:07:55] Krista Smith: Well, one of the things that struck me about this movie is that for one, it set in 2049, which feels like in our lifetime, it's not in this fantasy world of, you know, 200 years from now.
[00:08:10] And also that. It was this the silence and the vastness of it for, for a lot of it. And usually when you're watching a film kind of about-- that's dealing with the end of the world, it's explosive and loud and you're on earth and it's just chaotic. And this is seen from essentially from space. Can you talk a little bit about that? Cause that was--
[00:08:35] George Clooney: well, it was interesting when we got, when I got the script and we started to work on it, you realize that the little girl in particular. She doesn’t speak, so I don't need to speak, you know, you get to a point. So, we, we cut I don't know about 80 or 90 lines of dialogue between myself and the little girl.
[00:08:52] Cause she's not going to answer, why am I talking to her? It could be just exposition then and you don't need it. And it fell to me that it's, this is more of a meditation in a way of loneliness and of loss. And when we're having such a difficult time between earth and our future, which is this, this spaceship and our inability to communicate feels very much like the things that we're going through and that we have been going through for quite some time, actually, um, more and more, not just politically, socially, you know, when someone falls into the,
[00:09:31] the subway, our instincts, aren't all of us a jump into the tracks and pull them out. Our instinct is to pull out our camera and get a shot. You know, again, it's we, we were losing this sense of community. I mean, I, I was in a pretty bad motorcycle accident and I remember very vividly because I thought I was going to die.
[00:09:50] I cracked my head through this guy's windshield, and this is in Sardinia a couple of years ago. And I sort of know when you hit a guy at 70 miles an hour, that you're in trouble and I'll never forget the feeling of laying on the ground and having everyone realize who was on the ground and having them all pull out a camera and shoot me with their camera and remembering how isolating that was.
[00:10:13] And so I thought that this is sort of a natural result of that is this sort of, you know, if you play this forward, you know, we, we get into our own worlds and we stop caring about one another and looking out for one another. And it's very conceivable that we could do all of these things to Earth and to ourselves.
[00:10:32] And I thought that it's an interesting thing to take out all of the sound and have it just be about emotion. We have action in the film and I don't want people to think it's just a you know, a long, slow drag. Um, and there's a lot of things that are really funny and sweet in it, but there is a, you know, they're earned, I think,
[00:10:52] Krista Smith: well, this is your seventh film that you've directed.
[00:10:55] Right. So I want you to talk about like, what was the stuff that excited you about taking this on? Because there is enormous scale and like you said, a lot of action in it as well, but yeah. What excited you and then what kept you up at night?
[00:11:13] George Clooney: I knew that that was going to be tricky and complicated.
[00:11:17] Space I'd done. “Gravity” and “Solaris.” So, I had a real understanding of what those complications work, but I was, I was terrified of the scale because scale is terrifying, you know, you're, you're going to go in and say, you know, let's do this, you know, film and we're shooting on 65. So it's, you know, it's gigantic scale and, and we're gonna, you know, we're doing handheld shots with a 65 millimeter lens.
[00:11:46] You know, it's like everything is, is bigger. Everything was large. And, and try not to, um, copy anybody else? It's hard because some people have done it really well. “Gravity” is done pretty damn well. So trying to reinvent things like the, the blood sequence with, uh, with Maya, um, you know, I'd never seen that in film. In the script, she runs out of air and we'd seen that in gravity.
[00:12:16] So I thought, well, let's. Let's have her bleed. And then I looked at some old footage of astronauts in space and they would pour water out into the air and then they drink it out of the air. And I thought that I wanted the blood to be that, but I wanted it to be poetic. And it's a really interesting thing.
[00:12:35] When you go to the, the, the visual effects guys, and you go, I need this blood to move like a ballet. You know, wild way and to have them come up with it, which was, I mean, it was spectacular what they did. I mean, really spectacular.
[00:12:52] Krista Smith: Well, you talked a little bit about this early or about your costar pronounce her name for me. Because It's spelled interestingly,
[00:12:59] George Clooney: Caoilinn It’s Caoilinn.the Irish, I'm Irish. They spell weird names.
[00:13:03] Krista Smith: Okay. Well, Caoilinn. Yeah, she's extraordinary. Extraordinary.
[00:13:08] George Clooney: Yeah, she really screws it up for all the other actors too, because almost everything I did with her was one take. And she'd never acted before, and she's brilliant.
[00:13:20] There's, there's something about her eyes and, you know, having been on ER and play a pediatrician, I worked with a lot of kid actors. You know, and the issue with kid actors is that they are sort of trained by their parents on how to respond. So, they're kind of responding before you even asked the question.
[00:13:40] They're a little ahead of it. They're very professional, you know. And she just listens. She’d just look at you and I'd be talking and I go, you know, can you breathe now? And she would look at me and then take a pause and then shake her head. Like she took a breath and yeah, I can breathe. And so she was, you know, she reacted in a moment in the way that the best actors do.
[00:14:02] I mean, I just think it's a phenomenal performance by her.
[00:14:05] Krista Smith: I was thinking after. I watched midnight sky weather. Had you not become like a family, man, if you had made that movie. And it, it made me think about I'm a mother, I have two kids, so I know how drastically kids can change your life. But, um, I'm also curious to talk about how it changes your creative life.
[00:14:30] George Clooney: Well, I mean, you know, I haven't acted in five years in a film, it doesn't change the kind of jobs I like to do, you know? Um, it does. I mean, my daughter and son came to one sequence. When I fall in the water, we shot in a tank. Obviously, we weren't in the ice water in Iceland. So we shot in a tank which was cold, but not, you know, ice water.
[00:14:57] And I'm in the tank in a wetsuit with like, with my wardrobe on, on top of it. And my wife shows up with my two kids and I'm shooting. I have to come out of the water and I'm all upset because you know, I've lost this apparatus is going to keep me alive. And my daughter’s, like ‘papa, I want to come swimming with you.’
[00:15:15] Right. So now every time I say I'm going to work, she thinks I'm going to a swimming pool. So, for her work for me is like the greatest thing on her; swimming.
[00:15:28] Krista Smith: So funny. You're that guy that I remember when I first moved here, you were that actor that had, you know, upteenth failed pilots and, you know, the guy that you know was almost always gonna never be.
[00:15:42] Uh, and then you hit with “E.R.”, uh, kind of in middle age for an actor really in your mid-thirties,
[00:15:50] George Clooney: Yeah 34. Yeah. 34.
[00:15:52] Krista Smith: Yeah 34. Uh, And the second you stepped on that small screen, it was like a supernova. You became, you were all things to everybody in everyone's living room at night. And then the movie star.
[00:16:05] George Clooney: I mean, first of all, “E.R.,” was the reason it wasn't me, you know, that show, we're getting 40 million people a week watching that show and you know, it's just crazy.
[00:16:15] So within a week, we were on the cover of Newsweek, but you know, I got an offer for, you know, a movie “Dusk ‘Till Dawn” and I'm like, I'm going to do that on my time off. And I knew that there was going to be this one moment. You know, I knew when it was hitting and it was going well for me. And I thought, I'm not going to, I'm not going to step off of this train until somebody pushes me off.
[00:16:37] And so for the next five years of the show, I did, I don't know, seven or eight films while I was doing the show. Which meant I worked seven days a week for about five years, but I didn't mind it at all. I was still a young guy and it was exciting. And I knew by the end I had gotten to a place where I was.
[00:16:56] Yeah, there's a lot of, well, he's never going to make it off a TV for awhile. Cause I had “Peacemaker” and “Batman and Robin,” stuff that people didn't dig. And then things started to change a little bit. And, and then I got a hit with, uh, the first real hit was “Perfect Storm,” which had absolutely nothing to do with me.
[00:17:13] It was a big, giant wave, and that was the star of the movie. But since I took so much shit for “Batman and Robin,” I took the credit for, for “Perfect Storm.”
[00:17:22] Krista Smith: Then came this moment of activism for you. Where you took a giant step, you know, out of that spotlight into a bigger spotlight to come out against the Iraq war, to come out against a couple of other things and, uh, dealing with the environment and dealing with, you know, other global events like Darfur and all that stuff later on.
[00:17:44] But at that moment, coming out against the war was a huge shift.
[00:17:48] George Clooney: I remember calling my dad and saying, am I in trouble? And my dad said, you know, you can't demand freedom of speech and then say, but don't say bad things about me. And he was right, of course. And so then it was like, well, then it made sense to just go, okay, these are fights worth picking.
[00:18:06] And I knew as time goes on, I wasn't going to be on the wrong side of that one history. And, you know, and I I've always felt like, you know, my father, particularly made it a point when I was a very young kid to say, always pick fights with people who are more powerful than you, and always look out for people who are less powerful, period.
[00:18:28] That's that if there's anything I was thought in my household, it was that. And I believe in it, I think it works. You know, it's not always the most comfortable position. Um, there were plenty of times when my father would, you know, get angry at somebody that I would go can't you just ignore it. Can't you just let it go?
[00:18:46] Um, and now I'm proud that he didn't, but at the time, at 10 years old, I'd like to finish, you know, we didn't eat dinner out very often, I’d have liked to finish dinner.
[00:18:56] Krista Smith: Is there a particular film that made you want to be a director?
[00:19:00] George Clooney: Well, there's couple, um, “Out Of Sight” made me want to be a director because I worked with Steven Soderbergh and I suddenly realized, you know, you don't have to tell stories in a straight line.
[00:19:11] My relationship with Steven told me that I wanted to be a filmmaker and Steven and I became partners because he said when I would give him notes as an actor, I wouldn't give them notes about my performance. I'd give them notes on like what's working in a scene and what isn't. And so he always encouraged me to, to direct. Um, the movie that most inspired me
[00:19:31] about storytelling was “Network.” It's just a, it's a perfect film. You know, it's a perfect film and everything Paddy Chayefsky wrote about in 1975, came out in 76. Um, everything you wrote about came true, you know, everything, the idea that there is no United States, there is no Soviet Union. There is only Exxon you know, and IBM.
[00:19:56] And all the, the, the, the, that the, the newsman could be the entertainer and that, uh, there would be reality television, you know, in the way that they use it as everything you wrote about came true, but he did it so beautifully, you know? Hmm. So beautifully.
[00:20:13] Krista Smith: Well, thank you so much for your time, George. And congratulations on the film.
[00:20:17] It's just stunning and a must see, and really thought provoking and entertaining at the same time. So, I thank you for that.
[00:20:26] George Clooney: We’re really proud of it. So, thanks for saying that.
[00:20:35] Krista Smith: You could listen to my full interview with George on Present Company, wherever you get your podcasts. And go to Netflix Queue.com. That's Netflix Q U E U E .com to read his cover story. Okay. So, Rashida for this next interview, we were so privileged to get playwright and director George C. Wolfe to record himself in conversation with Branford Marsalis.
[00:20:59] And as you know, Branford did the music for “Ma Rainey's Black Bottom,” which George directed, and to see him direct this movie with Viola Davis and Chadwick Boseman. Of course, it's his last performance. He's so good in it. It's so bittersweet and heartbreaking. And Viola is incredible.
[00:21:18] Rashida Jones: She's a force. She's an absolute force and brings all of that.
[00:21:21] Always. My very, very brief Viola Davis story is that I just was sort of admiring her from afar, like everybody else. And we were at some party a couple of years ago and she was like, you don't remember me? And I said, no, I mean, I know, yes, I know who you are. And she said, we, we did a pilot together in 1998 in New York, you don't remember?
[00:21:42] She's a crazy, good memory. And, and I, I didn't, because I was like doing, it was my first job out of school. It was like the first thing I booked in New York and I was playing a drug addict guest star on a pilot. Um, opposite Rip Torn and I just, I don't remember anything from that, but the fact that she had the, you know, the respect and the grace and the memory to come up and, you know, remind me, I was just, just blew, blew me away.
[00:22:12] Krista Smith: Yeah. It's like, I love that she remembered. And you had no idea that it's like, but
[00:22:17] Rashida Jones: I know like, you don't, you're not supposed to know who I am at all. Please.
[00:22:22] Krista Smith: Like the role that got you, your SAG card. And you're like, Viola Who?
[00:22:30] Rashida Jones: literally.
[00:22:30] Krista Smith: Now I'm sure your dad has worked with Branford Marsalis somewhere along the line. It's like an impossibility that they haven't crossed paths.
[00:22:38] Rashida Jones: You knows George and the whole Marsalis tribe. Yeah. That's, you know, it's also like, I feel like it's the kind of thing you work in, If you work in the arts and you've been around for decades, especially if you reign like in New York, like those gentlemen, have you just know everybody, you know. You just do it.
[00:22:56] Cause everybody comes through to see you and see the things that you do.
[00:22:59] Krista Smith: Right. Well, what I love about him is he's played with everyone from Sting to The Grateful Dead. And of course, I remember him when he had his stint on the Tonight Show, you know, he's in everyone's living room then, but all right, well, let's, let's have a listen to that conversation between George C. Wolfe and Branford Marsalis.
[00:23:14] “Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom” based on the play by August Wilson is set in 1927 and envelops the racial tension within the music industry during the heightened time of upheaval in the United States. Viola Davis, who plays the mother of the blues, AKA Ma Rainey is more than fantastic.
[00:23:36] She's bewitching in her portrayal, Wolf or renowned director and playwright of both theater and film, as well as a five-time Tony award winner has firmly established himself as one of America's most important and influential cultural voices. Listening to George and Branford, you can just tell they're great friends.
[00:23:54] Here's the conversation,
[00:24:00] Branford Marsalis: Brother, George. Great to see you again, bro.
[00:24:02] George C. Wolfe: Nice to see you too. How are you?
[00:24:03] Branford Marsalis: I'm well, let's see. Where should we start? When did Denzel and those guys first approach you to, uh, direct Ma Rainey?
[00:24:11] George C. Wolfe: I think-- Denzel disagrees, but-- he wanted to do a play on Broadway. And so, he wanted me to direct it. And so, we started having a series of conversations.
[00:24:23] And so he mentioned that he wanted me to direct Ma Rainey. And so he asked me if I was interested. So I said, okay, well let me read it. And, and I believe Rubin was already working on it. Right. Uh, and he had maybe done a draft or something like that. And then I did “Iceman Cometh” with him and then I think.
[00:24:43] After I finished that. I started working on the script.
[00:24:49] Branford Marsalis: You started working on the script. So then I guess you agreed once you started working on the script.
[00:24:53] George C. Wolfe: I guess I did. Yes, I did. You know, I'd never done an August Wilson play because I, you know, there were series of directors that he worked consistently with. First with Lloyd and then Mary McClinton and then Kenny Leon, and you know, and I don't, and I don't, I'm not a big fan of doing revivals.
[00:25:09] I liked, I liked the danger of what might not work right. As opposed to somebody else has figured out how to make something work. Right. So I'm much more interested in the, this could fail or this could be amazing. And I think that energy, I breathe very, I, I breathe in, in a very interesting way inside of that kind of energy.
[00:25:29] Branford Marsalis: Hmm. So, when did you start doing your research on Ma?
[00:25:32] George C. Wolfe: I think when I started working on the script and just started digging into it and the history in 1927 in Chicago, and just started absorbing all of that. It was very fascinating --
[00:25:44] Branford Marsalis: Hey, move back to the microphone.
[00:25:46] George C. Wolfe: I’ll move back to the microphone. You just directed me. Oh my goodness.
[00:25:49] Branford Marsalis: You're welcome.
[00:25:52] George C. Wolfe: I started digging into the pictures of her and. And, and, and she was, she was, was very interesting because the gold teeth and the jewelry around the necklace and these fans who were devoted to her. And she sang these songs and she was an out unapologetic lesbian, and it just became fascinating to me just, and that she was her own kind of entrepreneur and was in charge of her faith.
[00:26:20] And so all of that just became really fascinating to me. And she was incredibly prolific and she wrote all these songs and there were just, as I was to discover more, this is more so when I got into filming. There are like six or seven pictures of her,
[00:26:34] Branford Marsalis: Right.
[00:26:34] George C. Wolfe: Total.
[00:26:35] Branford Marsalis: Right Wow.
[00:26:37] George C. Wolfe: Total on the planet.
[00:26:38] Branford Marsalis: Right.
[00:26:40] George C. Wolfe: And I've kept digging. There's gotta be more, they've gotta be-no. So that became just really, really fascinating to me. Just that, that she didn't turn into a visual icon at all. She was, she was, she was, she was an icon based on what her, on what her voice could do and what she sounded like. And so there was something heroic about that aspect of it, but she, she was never, you know, a pinup girl for like, and I'm being facetious, but she never really was.
[00:27:06] Branford Marsalis: I get you. There's a, there's a line in the movie, which you talked about.
[00:27:09] In prior conversations where we're in the player, really, you cleaned it up in the movie where she just says, you know, I don't like it here. No way I can just take my black ass back to Georgia. And there's, uh, a reality to that. There's a way that you viewed her decision to stay in the South that I think would really be something that would help clarify the reality of what it meant to be black in the South, as complicated as it was at times.
[00:27:37] George C. Wolfe: I love that line because there was this huge, huge clue that that's what that's ultimately what I think August was writing about that. Something that when, when black people left the South and move North something was lost.
[00:27:53] Branford Marsalis: Right? Tell me what that was.
[00:27:55] George C. Wolfe: So you have this sense of belonging. And that sense of belonging gets connected to more than likely, who, who it belonged to before. I mean, in New Orleans, people are living in the houses that their grandfathers, you know grandmothers lived in.
[00:28:08] Branford Marsalis: Great great grandparents, yes.
[00:28:09] George C. Wolfe: and that sense of legacy. You can't there's, there's something about there's something. So extraordinarily empowering about that.
[00:28:18] Branford Marsalis: Right.
[00:28:18] George C. Wolfe: That sense of defiance in the presence of no power. Or, or the, the, the, the opinion that there is no legal power or economic power, I think is incredibly inspiring and important. And that's what I found so incredibly interesting inside of Ma Rainey, but here she was able to build an economic base and here she was able to be in charge of her music and her art and took care of feeding and, and handling other people.
[00:28:46] So that became really fascinating to me when she goes to Chicago and she has attitude. It's not attitude just based on the willfulness of her being his attitude based on a legacy and a sense of history and story that she has .
[00:29:00] Branford Marsalis: And Viola delivers it with that kind of force. I mean, it's amazing to see.
[00:29:04] George C. Wolfe: Absolutely. Unapologetic. Unapologetic. Claiming and owning it and not asking anyone's permission.
[00:29:10] Branford Marsalis: Absolutely. Love it. As you started to read the script, did you visualize all of the principal actors or were there a second choices or when you saw it, did you say Viola and Levy, Chadwick.
[00:29:24] George C. Wolfe: Viola was about two seconds after, after I, after I agree to direct it. Denzel and I had a conversation and we both said Viola into conversation.
[00:29:35] And so we sought that out and then we thought about, um, Chadwick and then, and then, and then asked him and, and, you know, and I think he was, I think he was really interested in King Hedley, but he, he came on board to play Levy. Thank God. Um, and then just went on from there, adding in, you know, Glenn and Coleman and Michael Potts.
[00:29:58] Branford Marsalis: Yeah. They were amazing.
[00:30:00] George C. Wolfe: And that's well, let's go back to the musicians.
[00:30:02] Branford Marsalis: Yeah, let's go back to that. The first question is, you know, knowing that like, this is a really arduous task, trying to get musicians that play in that style and play with that kind of authenticity. Why the fuck did you give me three weeks to put all this shit together? [laughs]
[00:30:19] George C. Wolfe: Well, clearly
[00:30:20] Branford Marsalis: How about a month?
[00:30:20] George C. Wolfe: I don't know why, why you're asking the question because you did it.
[00:30:26] Branford Marsalis: Man, I’m in Australia playing with a chamber orchestra. Working on that hard ass music. And I got all these golf days lined up with my mates over there. And then you call me and say, you got to do the music for this movie. When do you need it? Three weeks.
[00:30:46] George. Three weeks. Three weeks, bro?
[00:30:46] George C. Wolfe: I don't understand the point of the question because you did it.
[00:30:51] Branford Marsalis: yeah, I mean, I'm glad it worked in the back of my mind. I was like, Oh shit, this is going to be tough. I mean, yeah, we got lucky, but man, give me, give me five weeks next time. That's all.
[00:31:01] George C. Wolfe: I don't think it was luck. I clearly, I have tremendous faith in your talent and your ability.
[00:31:08] Branford Marsalis: I don’t want to hear that.
[00:31:08] George C. Wolfe: And so you have to sacrifice your little playing golf.
[00:31:11] Branford Marsalis: I don't want to hear it crap.
[00:31:11] George C. Wolfe: Who gives a crap. You’re making great art.
[00:31:12] Branford Marsalis: I wasn't talking about the golf part. It was more about the three weeks. I mean, you know, thank God I was from New Orleans because I mean, the whole thing was like, those guys still play in that style and I knew that was going to be great.
[00:31:25] So it was clear we had to do it in New Orleans. And, uh, it was really important to find uh, guys and gals were really strong personalities. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, uh, Wendell Brunious the trumpet player, the Cornet player was perfect for Levy. He was the perfect guy.
[00:31:41] George C. Wolfe: And also they're, they've absorbed information from somebody who absorbed information who absorbed that information from somebody.
[00:31:49] So when they're playing it's hearkening back decades.
[00:31:50] Branford Marsalis: Yes.
[00:31:50] George C. Wolfe: And so, and you can't teach that. It's just, there's a sense of continuum. And if you reach, if, and if it goes back far enough, it goes back, you're connecting it to Ma’s sound. You're connected to something that is ancient and potent and, and, and knowable and unknowable at the exact same time.
[00:32:14] So that when you're in the presence of it, you surrender.
[00:32:17] Branford Marsalis: Yeah. I mean, when I was watching the, the scenes, when I was writing the music, the thing that really knocked me out is that, I mean, it didn't feel like a bad imitation of 1927. It felt like 1927.
[00:32:30] George C. Wolfe: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:32:31] Branford Marsalis: A lot of people watching and take on and say, man, that was a great movie.
[00:32:33] I sure did like Viola. I'm I'm gonna miss Chadwick, but some people are going to see it and start to want to investigate Ma Rainey’s music.
[00:32:41] George C. Wolfe: I think that's going to happen a lot.
[00:32:43] Branford Marsalis: Yeah. So the question is, is just like, what, what do you think Ma's legacy ultimately is in the Pantheon of singers? And..
[00:32:52] George C. Wolfe: you know, I think that people existed and they were crucial.
[00:32:57] Would things have evolved without them? Probably, but not the way that they did. Ma Rainey for a period of time had an intensely devoted following who felt as though their voice was speaking directly to them and for them. I believe that Ma was speaking for people who needed to be heard. And that was crucial to it.
[00:33:28] I think the crucial to her significance. I also think that the ferocity and the unapologetic energy with how she lived her life is in that sound. And I think that if, if you know anything about her, people are going to know about her from this film. You you, when you hear her voice, you can hear that sense of bravery and defiance and strength in the way she sounds.
[00:33:58] And I think that she, she musically mattered and I think historically, probably even more so, deeply mattered.
[00:34:08] Branford Marsalis: Yup. You're right. I just regret that we couldn't have an opportunity to do one of those songs that she did with, with the saw.
[00:34:18] George C. Wolfe: Oh, yes. Yes.Is it possible to,
[00:34:19] Branford Marsalis: OOOAAA [he imitates the sound a hand saw makes when used as an instrument.]
[00:34:22] George C. Wolfe: Is it possible? Do you know how to play saw?
[00:34:25] Branford Marsalis: Uh, no, but I know people who do it would not be me.
[00:34:28] George C. Wolfe: Yeah, I do. I, I play the saw.
[00:34:30] Branford Marsalis: You do?
[00:34:31] George C. Wolfe: Yes I do.
[00:34:33] Branford Marsalis: you, you do not.
[00:34:34] George C. Wolfe: I, I practice it nightly.
[00:34:39] Branford Marsalis: [laughs] Okay fool.
[00:34:40] George C. Wolfe: My Samanship is exempelary.
[00:34:41] Branford Marsalis: I'm sure.
[00:34:43] George C. Wolfe: So next time you need one, call me,
[00:34:44] Branford Marsalis: You know what I'm I'm. If I need one, I'm going to call you.
[00:34:48] George C. Wolfe: Okay.
[00:34:48] Branford Marsalis: I'm to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call your bluff on that shit.
[00:34:50] George C. Wolfe: Yeah. And, and, and, um, Michael Potts could literally play the bass.
[00:34:55] Branford Marsalis: He played the damn bass.
[00:34:57] George C. Wolfe: Wow.
[00:34:58] Branford Marsalis: I turned around and I said, When did you learn how to play the bass?
[00:35:01] He said, Oh, about a month ago, my God, what the hell? I mean, he didn't have like a big, robust sound and all of that stuff, but like all of the notes were correct. It was the damnedest thing.
[00:35:13] George C. Wolfe: That's fascinating.
[00:35:15] Branford Marsalis: Chadwick was amazing because, uh, the only thing I had to tell him was is that, you know, Miles Davis was born in 1929, I think, or 1927.
[00:35:24] You can't be arching your back, like Miles he ain't around yet. So go get some Louis Armstrong videos and make that happen. And he did, he went to YouTube and the next day he was right in.
[00:35:33] George C. Wolfe: And yeah, no, it's so funny. Cause even we, we have finished recording one of the songs. I don't know what it is, what it was.
[00:35:40] It may have been, “Hear Me Talking To You “or whatever we would done at then two or three days later, he came up to me and said, listen to this. You play without any degree of tonality, but he played “Hear Me Talking To You.” So he was still obsessing with the song.
[00:35:56] Branford Marsalis: Oh it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. I mean, when, whenever you guys had a break. He would start playing.
[00:36:02] George C. Wolfe: Yup. Yup.
[00:36:03] Branford Marsalis: It was crazy. It was crazy.
[00:36:05] George C. Wolfe: And in some of the intricate sections where he was like, uh, whether it be dialogue and talking, he knew exactly how it was supposed to work. And he was saying, no, no, if you say it, this rhythm, then this will work. And you'd say it was like, because he has that, he, he, you know, he has that music sensibility and he has that sense of time. it's miraculous.
[00:36:22] Branford Marsalis: It was really, it was, it was, it was really amazing.
[00:36:31] Krista Smith: Okay, Rashida. Now it's that part in the show where we get to bring on Will McCormack. So, without further ado. Will McCormick.
[00:36:40] Rashida Jones: Will McCormick, Willie Mac is really
[00:36:43] Will McCormick: Hello, hello.
[00:36:43]Rashida Jones: This is so weird you guys, this is surreal on the next level right now, two of my besties on a zoom during a pandemic, with lots of headphones and fuzzy mics. It’s weird. I don’t know.
[00:36:56] Will McCormick: I mean Is this real life? Krista Smith and Rashida Jones. I get to be on the same podcast? This is my all-time dream team.
[00:37:06] Krista Smith: Well, I'm just going to say it. I don't want to speak for Rashida, but I think she'd agree. I think you've got the best, like podcast, voice setup going on right now, Will, I don't know. You might have a future in podcasting.
[00:37:17] Will McCormick: You guys I'm professional. Come on.
[00:37:20] Krista Smith: All right. So, Willie Mac, as, uh, for our listeners that's Will McCormick's nickname around town. What have you been spending your COVID doing, what, your quarantine, how's it been going for you?
[00:37:31] Will McCormick: I think the silver lining throughout all of this is, I have a son and, um, you know, Uh, normally for, for work, I would be traveling and at the office and pretending that I was, you know, busy. But, um, I have not missed a day of his life and I, I wake up with them every morning and I put them to bed every night and give him a bath and to spend every single day of his life is the greatest feeling I think one can have as a dad.
[00:38:00] And, um, just to know how bonded we are and to have that time that you never get back is been the best thing about the pandemic for me.
[00:38:10] Krista Smith: Well, that kind of brings us right into a perfect segue to talk about your short, “If Anything Happens, I Love You,” which debuted on, on Netflix a few weeks ago, which is all about family and all about loss.
[00:38:25] And obviously centered around a school shooting. So we'll, when you were thinking about writing this, where were you in your life that made you feel like you had to write this story?
[00:38:34] Will McCormick: It’s interesting, you know, uh, loss and grief have kind of been over a cursive theme. Throughout everything that I've been trying to wrestle with creatively.
[00:38:46] I mean, from a very young age, I remember, you know, as a boy, my favorite movie was “Ordinary People.” You know, it wasn't “Gremlins.” I remember. I remember thinking when, when Tim Hutton went over and hugged Mary Tyler Moore, and he gave her the hug that she could never give him. I remember being a little boy and thinking what, wow, that's, that's great screenwriting.
[00:39:06] That's, that's really powerful. I've always been really interested in loss and in grief and what kind of grace and gifts we can find in grief when it feels like there aren't any available. You know, how do we push through and find whatever grace we can? And, you know, I was taking an acting class in the Valley.
[00:39:29] I take an acting class because I, you know, acting as my roots. And, uh, my wife's an actor, ma, my sister's an actor and it's, for me, it's like a pottery class, I guess, and just try to be creative. But, uh, I, I met a friend there and, uh, he's a writer and we were both interested in writing about grief.
[00:39:46] His name is Michael Govier, super talented guy. Uh, very creative, a lot of soul. And we were both interested in wrestling with some of the loss in our own lives. And, um, you know, we kept reading about school shootings that happen over and over and over again. And we thought, what would it be like to try to tackle that type of loss?
[00:40:11] Michael had this sort of beautiful Youngian visualization of the shadows and the film that represents the grief that we as human beings can't reach because we're in too much agony. And I thought, wow, that's, that's really beautiful because that's what. Grief feels like, right? Like you're separated from your soul and sort of the process of grief, hope, one hopes that they can reconnect.
[00:40:31] I've heard it said that when your parent dies, you're an orphan and when your spouse dies, you're a widow but when your kid does, there's no word for that. And it's not supposed to happen at school first and foremost.
[00:40:44] Rashida Jones: So, you know, this movie is. It's heart-wrenching, it's not, you know, it's not something that you kind of lightly put on and then you float out of it.
[00:40:52] Yeah. And move past it quickly. And I think the one kind of merciful thing in this whole pandemic has been that children are not the vectors, that they're not the ones that are being taken from us, you know, um, too early or, you know, disproportionately. And this movie has, has connected with so many people.
[00:41:15] It's like a sensation where people are watching it and they're posting it on Tik TOK. And they're, they're posting themselves before and after. And it's become this like global phenomenon. What do you think about this particular time makes this the kind of thing that people feel connected to or engaged in?
[00:41:35] Will McCormick: That's a great question. My honest answer is I don't totally know, but I do have a guess, which is, um, this has been going on, you know, Sandy Hook was eight years ago today. This has been going on for a long time and it hasn't changed. And I think that this sort of pain has been building and, and people haven't had a place to put it.
[00:41:55] I also think that there's been a pandemic and people are trapped inside and, and sort of looking for a way to find relief.
[00:42:04] Rashida Jones: And maybe they're with their kids more too, right? I mean, kids are not going to school in the same way.
[00:42:08] Will McCormick: I think so. I think so. And the fact that people have responded to it, um, I think was, for me, it was an emphatic declaration that people really do want to feel and they do want to feel relief and they do want to be a part of grief and they're not afraid to be vulnerable and to show their feelings.
[00:42:25] And I think a lot of that is sort of swept under the carpet. And I think that that is the power of story, right? Like these, these stories don't become statistics. When you're able to shine a light on one life, it becomes intimate and it becomes real and it becomes something you can hold and it becomes something that gets inside you, you know, so, um, you know, to, to have the opportunity to be on Netflix and to all of a sudden be an a 2D animated, short film about grief. To be in that many homes instantly is a surreal feeling as a filmmaker.
[00:42:56] It was really, really, really cool. And it doesn't happen for short films like that, you know? So, I think it's an anomaly, but it did, it struck a chord throughout the world. I mean, I've gotten messages from South America, from Africa, from Europe, from Asia. I mean, it's just been incredible.
[00:43:15] Rashida Jones: So cool.
[00:43:16] Krista Smith: Right. I think that the tick talking engagement on the hashtag, If Anything Happens, I Love You is over 50 million as of today.
[00:43:24] It's crazy. And that is for a 12 minute short
[00:43:29] Will McCormick: That's right. That's right.
[00:43:31] Krista Smith: That is all animated with no words. And you were involved with, um, Every Town For Gun Safety, right?
[00:43:41] Will McCormick: Yeah. We partnered with Every Town for Gun Safety early on. They were, they became a friend of the film. And as a storyteller, I was, I was, I wanted to make sure that we got this right.
[00:43:51] It's sensitive material and I wanted to be scrupulous. And you know, when I got their blessing on the script and the animatic, I felt like we were, we are in good shape to proceed to go to animation, but you know, it's, it's heavy material. So I didn't, so it's serious material that I wanted. We wanted to take it seriously.
[00:44:10] But we, yeah, we were with this as, as Indie as you can get it. One of the cool things about an independent film too, is, you know, our animation director, Youngran Nho was, she just graduated from Cal-Arts and she's a superstar. And in a, on a studio movie, she wouldn't get that job until she was 50, you know, and she has all the talent in the world. And she, I don't know how old she is, 24 or 25, but that's kind of the, the magic of, of indie film is people like me.
[00:44:39] Yeah. You know, I wouldn't get to direct a movie, but no one else would. So I was, I was just in, I was just around, you know, so, and, um, I think we got lucky with her and with our female composer and our all female animation team, we had like a really incredible group
[00:44:54] Krista Smith: Now. Will, how much did you, did you let Rashida read the script before you went to direct it.
[00:45:01] Will McCormick: I don't think that there's anything that I've done that I haven't vetted with Rashida. Because she has such great taste, A and she's so smart, B. And C, she really knows me. And D she believes in me, I think Rashida was the first, I mean, I, I could, you know, without sounding mockish in any way, but probably I can attribute any screenwriting success
[00:45:22] I have to Rashida because she was the first person who believed in me. And you need someone to believe in you because Lord knows it wasn't me believing in myself. So, you know, Rashida sorta gave me the confidence and the belief that I could actually, you know, have a career as a screenwriter and that I had value as a storyteller.
[00:45:41] And that is the most important thing one can have in a friend, but also as a colleague.
[00:45:47] Rashida Jones: Same Digs, exactly the same. I would not have-- I always wanted to be a writer and I didn't, I didn't feel capable or confident. I felt like I was surrounded by successful writers and I could never be them. And really only having Will by my side, every single minute of the day and writing our first feature together, was the only way that I, that I even could consider myself a writer if he wasn't there, I wouldn't have had that.
[00:46:14] Will McCormick: I really agree. I, for, for decades, for a decade, I wrote, I used to write about wanting to be a writer. You know, I used to, I used to go and write about what
[00:46:26] Rashida Jones: Is that a genre? That sounds like a genre. What do you write about? Just wanting to be a writer.
[00:46:30] Will McCormick: But really my whole life, my whole life. I wanted to be a writer. When I was little, I won like a poetry contest in my town. I was like, when I was eight, I submitted a poem to the local paper and I won. And then I caved from the pressure at like age eight, because I thought everyone said, Oh, you're going to be a writer.
[00:46:48] And I didn't re return to it for a long, long time. And it wasn't really until Rashida and I started writing together that I thought, Oh, hold on. I, I think we can do this. And that was a really exciting moment.
[00:47:02] Rashida Jones: Well, let me just say as a bookmark to where, where you, how you've progressed, Digs. That's what I call Will, but, um, you know, I think we both love witty banter.
[00:47:13] We love a back and forth. We love like a turn of phrase. And for you to write something like this, like Krista says that has no dialogue that sits completely in emotion and have it be such a successful nuanced connected story is, is such a huge accomplishment. It's really remarkable. And it is a testament to the kind of writer that you've become. It's really amazing.
[00:47:43] Will McCormick: Thank you so much. That means a lot. I mean, you know, I've been trying to write about, you know, loss my whole life, and I think sometimes on projects you just get lucky. And, um, I was really lucky meeting Michael and really lucky meeting Young and really lucky with Youngran Nho and, and Maryann Garger and Laura Dern and Jayme Lemons, you know, film as a team, a team sport. And, uh, sometimes things come together.
[00:48:10] Krista Smith: At the end of all my interviews, I call for what it's worth, basically, I ask who I'm interviewing their advice. And I think this year has been particularly hard for everybody. Um, and certainly since we're in our own myopic world of Hollywood, there's been a tremendous amount of disruption. And a lot of jobs have gone away.
[00:48:30] A lot of things have changed and pivoted and turned, and there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty about what the new normal is going to look like. So, yeah. I want to ask you guys to think about, like, what, what advice would you give someone that has been disrupted that isn't a creative field, whether they're a musician writer, artist, actor, want to be director or any of that?
[00:48:55] Like what would you tell them to, to help them persevere, I guess.
[00:49:01] Rashida Jones: This thing just keeps, this chorus keeps coming up in my head, which is ‘don't be distracted.’ Don't be distracted by what's cool right now. Don't be distracted by somebody else's narrative of you. Don't be distracted by anything.
[00:49:16] Like Will said, the day you really become an artist is the day that you accept who you are. And when you sound like yourself, whether it's, you know, as an actor or a singer or a writer and you stop trying to be somebody else, that's when you start to that's when you'll flourish. You know, but don't be distracted. And also like, and don't be distracted by the fact that things have been so challenging for everybody.
[00:49:45] And I think coming out of this time. It's going to be wild, like who knows what 2021 is going to bring in terms of art. And like, people are going to be back out there. Just don't be distracted. Stay the course, I say.
[00:49:59] Will McCormick: I'm going to echo Rashida. Cause we usually have the same thought, but you know, along the same lines, um, embrace it. I mean, you know, if there's a way to, first of all, just get through the day and do whatever you need to do.
[00:50:15] Cause this is a hard time, but if there's a way for you to capture the hardships of what you're going through. That's what we need. You know, I need your story. I need to know. I don't want you to be in pain, but if you are, I need to hear about it because that's going to help me, you know? So if there's a way to get it down and put it into a story.
[00:50:36] I'll be the first one to listen to it. You know, we need that.
[00:50:39] Rashida Jones: Yeah. And also like, this is, this will end and it will feel so far in the past because our memories are short and also everything is designed to keep us caring about what's right in front of us and not what just happened. As much as we will talk about this time
[00:50:54] and remember this time, I promise you people's memories. It's going to feel like it never happened almost. So, this is the time that when you are feeling these things and you're, and you're stuck feeling these things and these challenges, you got to process it. You got to really get it down because you won't feel like this forever.
[00:51:12] Krista Smith: That's great advice. This has been so much fun spending time with you guys. Rashida, thank you so much for co-hosting.
[00:50:18] Rashida Jones: I know. It was so fun
[00:51:20] Krista Smith: And what did you call it? COVID what was the line for?
[00:51:22] Rashida Jones: Status quo-vid. TM, trademark. No, it's not trademark, but it should be. Yeah, just keep, just keep surviving. Not thriving right now. Just keep surviving, status quo-vid.
[00:51:35] Krista Smith: Keep surviving. I love that status quo-vid. Will, thank you for writing and creating such a beautiful film, 12 minutes. I still can't get over that.
[00:51:46] Will McCormick: Thank you. Well,
[00:51:48] Rashida Jones: What an accomplished.
[00:51:49] Will McCormick: Those 12 minutes took three years. And to be here with you guys talking about, you know, “If Anything Happens, I Love You.” I'm really super grateful. So thanks for having me.
[00:51:58] Krista Smith: Oh, thanks for doing it. I love you both love you too.
[00:52:01] Will McCormick: Love you too, thank you.
[00:52:02] Rashida Jones: Love you too, love you guys.
[00:52:06] Krista Smith: That's our show. Thanks for listening. All the films and series discussed today are streaming on Netflix for more on George Clooney, George C. Wolfe, Branford Marsalis, and Rashida Jones, head over to Netflix queue.com. That's Netflix, Q U E U E.com. And follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, review, and share.
[00:52:30] Listen in next time for “More Like This.”