On Episode 2 of More Like This, Krista Smith and our special co-host Tre’vell Anderson leap through various historical moments in time. From Old Hollywood to the Vietnam War and even the reign of the Maury Povich Show, we explore 2020 cinema’s role in digesting the past. Amanda Seyfried speaks about playing Marion Davies in MANK, Laverne Cox and Angelica Ross discuss humanizing the trans experience in Disclosure: Trans Lives On Screen and film critic Chris Nashawaty places the year 1968 in context with Da 5 Bloods and The Trial of the Chicago 7. A history lesson taught with subplots.
On Episode 2 of More Like This, Krista Smith and our special co-host Tre’vell Anderson leap through various historical moments in time. From Old Hollywood to the Vietnam War and even the reign of the Maury Povich Show, we explore 2020 cinema’s role in digesting the past. Amanda Seyfried speaks about playing Marion Davies in MANK, Laverne Cox and Angelica Ross discuss humanizing the trans experience in Disclosure: Trans Lives On Screen and film critic Chris Nashawaty places the year 1968 in context with Da 5 Bloods and The Trial of the Chicago 7. A history lesson taught with subplots.
Krista Smith: Welcome to “More Like This,” a podcast from “Netflix Queue,” the journal that celebrates the people, ideas and process of creating great entertainment. I'm Krista Smith. I've spent over 20 years interviewing some of the biggest names in Hollywood. And on this show, I'm bringing you fresh new perspectives from across the entertainment industry, with the kind of access only Netflix can offer.
[00:00:26] But I won't be doing it alone. I get to collaborate with some of the best writers, interviewers and experts in the business. My co-host this week is award-winning journalist and self-proclaimed world changer, Tre’vell Anderson. Welcome to our show, Tre’vell.
[00:00:43] Tre'vell Anderson: Hey Krista. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:45] Krista Smith: Oh, I am so happy to talk to you. You're one of my all-time favorite peeps out there in the world.
[00:00:52] Tre'vell Anderson: Thank you.
[00:00:53] Krista Smith: What I want to know is what did you watch over the holiday?
[00:00:57] Tre'vell Anderson: Okay. So, I did a little bit of highbrow and a lot of lowbrow I have to admit, Okay? So, I'm that person that was like waiting for “The Great British Bake-off” finale to come out.
[00:01:11] I was waiting patiently. So, I watched that. I revisited “American Barbecue Showdown,” um, because it just was such a good show. I binged it, you know, earlier in the quarantine. Um, and then holiday-related, I guess, you know, I watched the, the Debbie Allen Dance Academy documentary that came out. “Jingle Jangle” was a real good time for me.
[00:01:36] Um, I've seen that like three times now, or something like that. So, you know, I've just been cycling through, you know, good, light, easy things.
[00:01:45] Krista Smith: I did pretty much the same. I mean, you're talking about “The Chocolate Nutcracker,” right? With Debbie Allen?
[00:00:50] Tre'vell Anderson: Yes.
[00:01:50] Krista Smith: I love that. I watched that as well. When I was so surprised is that those dancers, they do it year after year, after year, after year, it's this real community around that. I love that doc.
[00:02:01] I did “Christmas Chronicles” because I love Kurt Russell, little fun fact, [Tre’vell laughs] and also Goldie Hawn. So, I watched that I did “Jingle Jangle” as well. I got real into the spirit. I also put up my Christmas tree.
[00:02:15] Tre'vell Anderson: Oh, wow.
[00:02:15] Krista Smith: I got busy.
[00:02:16] Tre'vell Anderson: Oh, wow. You're in it already.
[00:02:18] Krista Smith: I also watch this short, “If Anything Happens, I love you.’
[00:02:23] And it is a 12-minute film and it is so moving. There's no dialogue, but the score and the story, and I'm just really-- was really an all of that film. And I don't want to give it away, but it is, it is about loss and gun violence, but it's done in such a unique, refreshing way. And the other question, because of our program today, I want to talk about classic cinema.
[00:02:50] So this is my happy place, really. I love, I love this area. Fantasy of the forties and the shoulder pads and film noir and Ingrid Bergman and Humphrey Bogart and all that stuff. But do you have a favorite, a classic kind of golden era of Hollywood film?
[00:03:10] Tre'vell Anderson: So I have kind of a, I don't want to call it a love, hate relationship with, you know the golden era.
[00:03:17] But like, you know, I'm all about like black films, black representation and stuff like that. And you know, back in the day we had some issues, let's just put it that way. Um, but if I'm going to choose any film from that time, period, I mean, I think I'm going to go with, um, “Stormy Weather’, the “Stormy Weather” count early forties, Lena Horne, Mr. Bojangles, Cab Calloway.
[00:03:42] I ju-- I love the love story in that film. And I feel like that's one of those films that's like the precursor to “Love Jones,” which, you know, a lot of us talk about these days in terms of black love on screen. So I would go with “Stormy Weather.”
[00:03:56] Krista Smith: That's an excellent choice.
[00:03:58] Tre'vell Anderson: Thank you.
[00:03:59] Krista Smith: Okay. Let's talk about “Citizen Kane.” I mean, it feels like one of those movies that is a must watch if you're interested in cinema, in Hollywood, in media, it's got everything. It's literally, I think, one of the greatest movies of all time. And that brings us to MANK. So MANK is David Fincher's new film about the infamous screenwriter
[00:04:26] Herman J. Mankiewicz, AKA Mank who co-wrote “Citizen Kane” with Orson Wells. And what makes this really interesting to me is that David Fincher directed the movie from a screenplay written by his father, Jack Fincher. So, Gary Oldman stars as bank Tom Burke, as Orson Wells and Charles Dance plays William Randolph Hearst.
[00:04:54] The character that brings them all together is Hearst’s mistress Marion Davies. And that role is played by Amanda Seyfried.
[Clip from MANK plays]
[00:05:05] Amanda Seyfried: I need a favor, but you're going to have to promise you won't laugh.
[00:05:08] Gary Oldman: Well, given the state of the world, a tall order.
[00:05:11] Amanda Seyfried: You’re gonna, I just know you are.
[00:05:11] Gary Oldman: I have got such a hangover right now, here's just a fighting chance I wont.
[00:05:16] Amanda Seyfried: I'm being burned at the stake and I am dying for a ciggy, boo
[laughs] There, God's punishing you. Watch those stairs. They're treacherous.
[00:05:28] Gary Oldman: Every moment on my life is treacherous.
[00:05:30] Amanda Seyfried: Well, as they say in the Bronx, make yourself to home, Mr. Mankiewicz. Or shall I call you Hermin?
[00:05:36] Gary Oldman: No, please call me Mank.
[Clip from MANK ends]
[00:05:38] Tre'vell Anderson: You know, we stan Amanda in this household over here.
[00:05:43] Um, mainly because of, you know, her contribution to “Mean Girls” those many years ago. But I feel like she's also like shown us such, such great ability in talent and range over the years in terms of like the different types of roles that she's taking on.
[00:06:01] Krista Smith: This for her is such a career moment. We've seen her range from “Mean Girls” to “Lovelace” to “Les Miserables.” But “MANK’, she scales new heights and you're going to love this Tre’vell, because she lives on a farm upstate the
[00:06:19] Tre'vell Anderson: [laughs] That sounds so perfect.
[00:06:19] Krista Smith: Right? The antithesis of glamour and Hollywood and New York or L.A., any of it.
[00:06:26] So sit back, enjoy here is Amanda Seyfried:
[Interview with Amanda Seyfried]
[00:06:32] Krista Smith: I am very excited to talk to you about “MANK” from the first second I saw it and I've seen it twice now, and I want to see it a third time. And having, tthe privilege of knowing your career from the very beginning, I feel like from my time at Vanity Fair and watching you grow, I feel like this is the part that you were meant to play.
[00:06:58] And you were revelation in this movie. It was just like, Oh, I was just so proud of you. So I'm going to start with that.
[00:07:06] Amanda Seyfried: Right. Thank you.
[00:07:09] Krista Smith: I think what makes this film so strong is the relationship between Marion and Mank and Mank of course, is played by Gary Oldman. Uh, and your chemistries, it's just incredible.
[00:07:22] You don't, as an audience member, you don't not believe it for one second. You feel like you're right there with them.
[00:07:27] Amanda Seyfried: Their relationship was written in a way that I think captured the best of both of them. The best of Mank in that he was really, truly so easy to be around and just wanted to have fun and was so smart and could spin things and make things so much more interesting.
[00:07:44] And Marion is the same. She's really clever and she's very charismatic and really, she just wants to have fun and she just wants to see the best in people. And so, you get the best of each of these people who they were and you see it, you see them mixed so beautifully in the, in the script. And you want to believe that that's how their, their relationship was.
[00:08:03] And I think because Gary is not very precious when he's on set, if he he's, he doesn't take himself that seriously. He shows up, he knows, he knows exactly what he's doing. In terms of like, he's very prepared. But he also can play around and nothing can be too serious. And that's the way I work. I am not very precious either.
[00:08:25] If I make a mistake. You know, I, I don't get into my head. We just, we just really work together that way, really well. And I think that you can feel that you can see all this, um, the connection that we have on set and how much we love our characters and how prepared we are and how we like to play around.
[00:08:42] And the connection between Mank and Marion, there it's all really kind of fused together.
[00:08:47] Krista Smith: Other than the script. Uh, and I imagine your conversations with David Fincher, how did you, Amanda get into Marion? Like, what was your, you know, did you do research? Like what, what did you start with and kind of, what did you end with?
[00:09:02] Amanda Seyfried: Oh boy. Well, I started with terror inside of me because she's a real person and she's Marion Davies. She's this glamorous movie star from the golden age. Someone, my dad admired, you know, he's just such a cinephile. So I just, there was a lot to live up to. So I knew I just needed to get as much information as possible, which was not that easy, surprisingly.
[00:09:22] She wasn't that well-respected when she was alive, which was interesting because she's an incredible actor. I think she's an incredible comedian. And that’s what she loved to do, and she thrived in that way. She's done so many movies. But she is a mystery, really. I mean her autobiographies is memories and we don't know how clear she was at that point when she was being interviewed. It’s always a trip.
[00:09:50] And I was lucky I had enough information, but, but then at the end of the day, we were also creating her based on an essence. That I have, and that she has, and that really was helped by just long conversations with David.
[00:10:07] Krista Smith: Well, I want to talk about some of your projects because you had such, you've had a lot of diversity, intentionally or unintentionally, uh, from “Mama Mia.’
[00:10:17] Obviously we talked a little bit about “Les Miserables” you know, singing in both of those and singing with Meryl Streep. I'm just going to say and dancing around in overalls and all that uh, jazz. [laughs] For you, are those conscious choices or is that just, like you said earlier, one thing kind of came after another and it was just a matter of saying yes to things as they came along?
[00:10:41] Amanda Seyfried: Yes. The diversity of roles, very intentional. It's tricky. Just to be specific. It was really tricky to go forth with Lovelace and Chloe because of the content. But my, but I did those movies. For a lot of reasons, but the, the other reasons were because I needed to break out of whatever people thought, especially the industry to be seen in the industry as to be respected in the industry is of course really important.
[00:11:13] I've always wanted that. I've always wanted people to trust that I could, I could perform and I could bring it. And I can play different roles. So, the diversity in that respect, like you, that's kind of like being tested, you know, I'm, I want to pass the test in my own for my own peace of mind, and also to show people that I can, I'm an actor.
[00:11:34] I can play different roles, but “Chloe” and “Lovelace” where, you know, they could have been really tricky if I didn't nail it, or if I didn't. If I couldn't get a writer, if the movie turned out really bad or for men, any sort of, any number of reasons. But I also, I was like, look, these are pretty serious roles.
[00:11:53] I'm not playing the dumb blonde. And then of course I'd have to fight for a lot of roles. And that had nothing to do with keeping my career diverse. It was just, I need to play Gazette in this movie.
[00:12:07] Krista Smith: Do you like the plate? Do you like when you audition?
[00:12:11] Amanda Seyfried: I love when someone's like, ‘I don't think you're right for it.’
[00:12:15] And then I can reply. I'm right for it. You will see. And of course, I don't know how many times I auditioned for “Les Miserables.” I was told no before I even auditioned. And I was like, you're gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you want to choose me by the end of this. And it worked. Perseverance really worked. I love auditioning.
[00:12:39] I'm like, I'm the actor that will, that will read, you know, there's just so many actors that I forget what it's called when agents are like, Oh, offer only. I'm not an offer-only for the most part, because I like to fight. I love reading. I love, I love the competition.
[00:12:58] Krista Smith: Did you fight for Marion?
[00:13:00] Amanda Seyfried: I didn't actually, I hate-- I feel silly saying that. It feels like I’m bragging in some way.
[00:13:08] I'm shocked that I did not have to fight. I would have fought and, and won. Actually, I would fought and won because I would have worked my ass off, but I didn't have to.
[00:13:19] Krista Smith: It's the part you were meant to play? They knew that.
[00:13:23] Amanda Seyfried: I hope so. I think, I like to think that David trusted that I could, I could embody her in the way he wanted.
[00:13:30] Krista Smith: All of it was so great.
[00:13:32] Amanda Seyfried: You're afforded so much time and space. When Fincher is doing a movie, everybody behind him in terms of finances seem, it seems to me like they trust so much when he's doing so much of what he's doing. And it seems like there's a lot, there's the luxury of time. And space and you get the best costumes and the best prompts and the best production design.
[00:13:58] Everything is just to the nines that like you have all the time in the world to shoot these scenes. You just kind of melted into that world. You know, you, you think a scene on my last movie, one scene would take half a day and this would take an entire week. And so I lived with those props in with those costumes much longer than I do with any other character it's.
[00:14:22] So I don't, I don't miss any of it actually. Like I really got to live in it. I really got to like milk it. I've done a lot of cool things in my life. I played a lot of cool characters and I've worked with amazing people, but, but this is on another level. This is something that's gonna live on for, for everybody.
[00:14:44] Everybody involved. And for everybody that sees it. This is one of a kind.
[00:14:47] Krista Smith: It is one of a kind. It's so timely, the script and the, all of it is brilliant. And I'm so happy for you, too. Thank you so much, Amanda. I love catching up with you and
[00:15:02] Amanda Seyfried: It’s good to see you. I really appreciate this, though. I'm so happy you want to see it again.
[00:15:05] Krista Smith: I absolutely want to see it again. You see different things in them film and you'd respond to different things and it's, it's fantastic. So I appreciate your time and congratulations on the new addition to your family.
[00:15:19] Amanda Seyfried: Thank you.
[00:15:25] Krista Smith: To read more on Amanda. Go to NetflixQueue.com. That's Netflix Que Q U E U E dot COM. And to listen to the full interview, please go to Present Company anywhere you listen to podcasts.
[00:15:38] Ah, so good.
[00:15:39] Tre'vell Anderson: Yes, I love, I have to ask you, ‘cause I know you've been in this industry, you know, you're a veteran at this thing. When did, was the first time you met, spoke to Amanda?
[00:15:50] Krista Smith: You know, I first I think like you, I feel like I first noticed her in mean girls and was like, wow, who is that? But one of my very, my first impression of her was when we were shooting a, one of those Hollywood covers where there's, you know, three panels and it's this giant day and Annie Liebowitz is shooting and there's schedules.
[00:16:13] And like all this stuff to put together, it's like producing a film and she was on that cover and she was so sick. She had the flu, but she wasn't going to miss that. Uh, cover, right? Cause it's one and done. And I was so impressed by the fact that she was throwing up and then would sit up and take the picture.
[00:16:34] And she was--
[00:16:35] Tre'vell Anderson: Looking gorgeous
[00:16:35] Krista Smith: looking gorgeous. First of all, it was like flawless. You would never know she was sick, but she was really sick. And just that kind of recognizing that this is a moment I'm not going to get again and I'm going to make sure that I'm here and instead of making it all about herself and I'm sick and it was all about like, don't pay attention, nothing to see here, I'm fine.
[00:16:55] Tre'vell Anderson: I love that.
[00:16:55] Krista Smith: Take the picture. Okay. Now Tre’vell, I'm going to, I might be making you uncomfortable for a second, but now's the time in the show that we're going to celebrate you, for a second. All right? Or for a little bit more. This year, you were named one of The Roots” hundred, most influential African-Americans.
[00:17:14] And as president of the Los Angeles national association of black journalists, you were recently credited with pushing the organization to condemn any, and all instances of homophobia and transphobia in the community. You've been on the forefront of black, queer and trans visibility and have been recognized for such. So, I want to ask you what hopes do you have for the immediate future and beyond.
[00:17:43] Tre'vell Anderson: I think for me, my hope is that as we see more and more queer and trans folks get opportunities in Hollywood, to be part of the telling of our own stories, that some of that energy, some of that attention spills into trans people in their everyday lives, right?
[00:18:02] Um, because we are very much so experiencing a landmark moment in terms of trans visibility, um, right now. And unfortunately, at the same time, 2020 is the deadliest year on record for trans people. Um, the majority of them being Black trans women, right?
[00:18:20] I am interested in how we can take our media and connect it to the very real lived experiences of trans folks so that we're not only celebrating trans people on screen, but we're also celebrating them, you know, in our everyday lives, in our local communities as well.
[00:18:36] Krista Smith: Hmm. Yeah. I just think it's so important to, to come to know and to understand and to experience lives that are different from our own.
[00:18:48] Tre'vell Anderson: I was just going to say that, I think that that's also like one of the beauties of, you know, this film that we're about to get to discuss “Disclosure: Trans Lives On Screen.” This documentary by Sam Fetter, that really, the way I describe it as it is
[00:19:03] it teaches us and shows us the ways in which media has taught us to hate trans people, both cisgender people, as well as trans people to hate ourselves. Um, starting with the earliest moving images from DW Griffith's through that golden classic Hollywood period that we discussed before all the way to “Pose” and the different shows that we see now.
[00:19:24] Right. Um, and it's done so beautifully by trans folk for trans folks, but also for non-trans folks. And I had the reason opportunity to sit down with Laverne Cox, who I mentioned before, who most people would probably know for, um, “Orange Is The New Black,” as well as Angelica Ross, um, who kind of shot to fame through “Pose” both are kind of featured voices in “Disclosure,” Laverne Cox, as an executive producer.
[00:19:54] So I'm really excited for you all to get a chance to hear a little bit of that conversation here it is with Laverne Cox and Angelica Ross.
[Interview with Laverne Cox and Angelica Ross]
[00:20:07] Tre'vell Anderson: How are you doing Laverne?
[00:20:08] Laverne Cox: I'm here. You know?
[00:20:11] Tre'vell Anderson: And we are thankful for that, Okay? We also have with us Angelica, Ross.
[00:20:16] Angelica Ross: I'm still feeling interestingly optimistic. So, I'm here. We're good.
[00:20:20] Tre'vell Anderson: We love optimistic. Well, we're here to discuss “Disclosure.” Laverne, could you, as an executive producer, could you give us a little bit of background information in terms of how you got involved with the project.
[00:20:32] Tell us a little bit about Sam, um, the director and his vision for “Disclosure.”
[00:20:36] Laverne Cox: The really interesting thing. And I hadn't really thought about it until now is that Angelica is the reason I became involved in “Disclosure.” And it's because, um, three years ago, I was, I was living here in LA and I was missing community. And I went online and I saw that you and Jen Richards were speaking at a panel and I just got into a Lyft to get there.
[00:21:00] And, and I went because of you. And Sam Bader happened to be giving a presentation of the research that would become “Disclosure” um, that day. And so, um, I just really thought, I thought, like if I, you weren’t speaking at that panel that day, I wouldn't have, um, gone to that panel and met Sam. And, I met Sam, talked to him after the discussion.
[00:21:23] We met a week later and I said, again, how can I be of service? I always wanted to do something that what I, in my mind, um, called the transgender “Celluloid Closet.” The Celluloid Closet for those who don't know, it's a film that's based on the book by Vito Russo. That looked at the history of, um, gay and lesbian representation in Hollywood.
[00:21:44] I would say for years, I was like, we need something like that for trans people. And I had just had a conversation with my manager about the next thing I wanted to do/ And I wanted it to be centered around trans history. And I apparently spoke it into existence and met Sam and three years later, here we are.
[00:22:00] Tre'vell Anderson: I love that in Angelica, you know, I want to know from you when you first got reached out to, to be part of the film, what was your initial reaction, your initial thought about the idea of, of this film, that chronicles trans history on screen?
[00:22:17] Angelica Ross: I mean, I just, I knew from the beginning, it definitely was going to be something for me that, uh, felt like a final…
[00:22:25] Finally a catalog, a real true telling of sort of the history that's so often whitewashed, uh, around our participation in all this. And, and again, it was another situation where I realizing that, you know, Laverne was going to be a part of it. Where just realizing, okay, we've got one of us on the team, you know what I mean?
[00:22:46] On the inside. So it was great. And when my sister called me, she was like, Angelica, really need your story. We need, we need your point of view. We need, you know, your lens on this. Will you be a part of it, I said, Yes girl, yes girl you know how we do.
[00:22:58] Tre'vell Anderson: Now Laverne, you know, I've told you this already. Um, but for those who don't know, you have a great long knowledge of trans history, trans representation. Um, I want to start by talking to you about like, what, what moments from your memory, your recollection of trans history were very important for you to have included in the film, um, as a discussion, a discussion piece for what people would, would take away.
[00:23:26] Laverne Cox: There's so there's so many things. So my first memories of seeing, um, what I thought was a trans character on screen, which was, um, Edie Stokes, um, from “The Jeffersons.” Um, it was also the relationship between, um, drag and trans because I, my mother was a huge fan of “The Flip Wilson Show.” And so that Geraldine character, right.
[00:23:48] Even though that was not a trans character, that Geraldine character. And I believe, um, the history of sort of comedians, particularly African-American comedians dressing in drag affected the ways in which people responded to me and imagined, or non-conformity when I was a kid. And later when I transitioned, I knew I needed to, we needed to unpack --
[00:24:09] That would be an impact of those representations on the lives of trans people in my life. Trans life as a transperson specifically I was also really interested in, um, and Christine Jorgensen and the way her story was framed, um, in that New York Daily news article from, um, I think it was December 1st, 1952, the headline read ‘EX-G.I. becomes blonde Jane.’
[00:24:32] And the way in which that headline. And then the way her story was framed, if someone who was a soldier or something that was associated with something very masculine becoming this blonde Jane. That's the sort of binary it would set up around how we talked about trans folks and that binary kind of persisted
[00:24:51] for the next 60 years in terms of how we talk with and about trans people. So I knew that needed to be explored as well. So those are a few of the things, just a few.
[00:25:02] Tre'vell Anderson: [laughs] Angelica you smiled when she, when she said, uh, the Jeffersons Edie Stokes and the Jeffersons, what's your connection to trans imagery prior to this particular moment?
[00:25:12] Angelica Ross: I really did gravitate towards these same characters that seem to be, these strong women. Who weren't necessarily trans, but the ways in which they were being sent or put in the story was not the ingenue. It was that, you know, was never that sort of situation. So it was very interesting. Um, so I'm going to still unpack that. One thing we couldn't also find, I don't think, in the archives was the fact that I had appeared
[00:25:35] on ‘Maury Povich Show,’ uh, twice. And so the reality was is that for the depiction. I remember growing up in my family household and, you know, ‘Jerry Springer’ and things like these coming on. And my mom being like, ‘none of my kids better not turned out like that.’ Or, you know, this kind of thing of just us hearing us in earshot and then come, you know, years later.
[00:25:59] My house mother, you know, at the time, you know, is encouraging me to take the call to go to Maury Povich because she said, it's just like, I mean, I know this, ain't the best name of a girl, you’re sickening. Because what we know is that when we watch those shows and Maury Povich, ‘Is It A He Or She,’ when we watch those shows the ones who were the most sickening caught people's attention.
[00:26:21] And so for us in the trans community, it was like the casting calls of all casting calls. If you are that bitch, then you go and storm the area and somebody might see you. Maybe somebody might eventually cast you on something or what have you. That was our to hope for. So what's so unfortunate within our trans community, is that so many people then got into a state where they thought that that's what made them special.
[00:26:51] It was like now we're, that's our gender identity. You know what I mean? That's just one aspect of who we are, but folks try to sell it to the mainstream media. Like, look, I'm a trans person I got a story, I'm a trans person. I'm a trans person. And because we were taught by allowing the media to do an exploitation into our lives.
[00:27:11] That was one of the ways we could be discovered. And now I'm so grateful that we have other avenues.
[00:27:18] Laverne Cox: Oh Angelica, that is so deep and so, I'm so glad you mentioned that.
[00:27:23] Angelica Ross: Well, let me tell you the fact that we were there made a huge difference in a way that I didn't, I did not expect. When I saw Erica Andrews as the makeup artists on the Maury Povich show, we kind of, all the girls came together and they rally behind me
[00:27:36] as I spoke to the main producers and say, ‘we have to change something.’ And still, we were like we’re tired being called men. We're tired of this happening and blah, blah, blah. And we actually took this to them from that point on, they started saying. With their signs to reveal she was born a boy, even that was, you know, so that little change in language happened because we were on because we went and we spoke up.
[00:28:00] Laverne Cox: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that, Angelica.
[00:28:04] Tre'vell Anderson: I want to use this as an opportunity to talk about the production model of a “Disclosure.” Laverne, could you give us a little bit of information about, um, how you all put together the team that gave us “Disclosure” and the importance of that intention?
[00:28:18] Laverne Cox: What we are all so proud of with “Disclosure” is that we were committed to making sure that every everyone, um, not only who's on screen in “Disclosure” is, is trans. Um, but everyone who works behind the scenes is also trans. And when we could not find someone trans to fill a role, Sam Fader, our brilliant director had an idea of creating a fellowship program where that, that cis-gender person would train a trans person in a job and whatever job we couldn't, um, fill with the trans person. And what was so beautiful about that with every most different one on, on, on this, on the crew was trans, and that created an environment that was so uplifting, so incredible. Everyone was invested in the material and in the subject matter in a, in a really, really special way
[00:29:05] Tre'vell Anderson: Both of you are producing other work. I'm wondering, um, if, if what would happen with “Disclosure” and the way that people are responding to “Disclosure,” as well as to the increased opportunities that we see
[00:29:18] so many of the other members of our community having, um, has changed how you approach the work that you're doing. Um, or at least the conversations that you've been having with potential collaborators? I'll start with Angelica.
[00:29:32] Angelica Ross: Yes. Um, for me, “Disclosure” was just further proof that, um, trans people being in charge of trans narratives is a good idea.
[00:29:44] And that not only is a good idea, but it, it really is an opportunity to teach people how to love and support us as a community. My dream of all dreams is to, you know, if Tyler Perry is listening out there, I moved to, I live in Atlanta, Georgia. My dream of all dreams is hearing his objective of using his lot to help with homeless, LGBTQ youth and with women who experienced domestic violence.
[00:30:17] My thing is okay, great. Now that we got them housed, let's put them to work. We don't even have to do, you know, the content you don't have to because they're new and all this thing, but I want to create that level that lets them get in and roll up their sleeves and learn things while they're on the lot.
[00:30:32] Tre'vell Anderson: What about for you, Laverne? How conversations have maybe changed for you as you're producing other work?
[00:30:40] Laverne Cox: I definitely encourage invite potential collaborators to watch “Disclosure” as a starting off point, right? So I, what I feel is possible now post “Disclosure,” it's for us to really have more sophisticated, um, narratives around trans people and that the possibilities, we can move forward.
[00:31:00] now that we've really clearly, you know, in a very, you know, very beautiful the way that this is what it's been, this is what the problems are. I found over the years, collaborating with, um, cis this folks who've written trans narratives with the very best of intentions and they want to tell these stories and they have no idea why they're problematic. Post “Disclosure,” that we have to elevate the conversation.
[00:31:24] Angelica Ross: I honestly think that we were just at a point right now where we're so used to the same white people telling the same stories and the same, telling it from the same direction. That what we're seeing with “Disclosure” is we can actually get through to people. If the lion is finally telling the stories, you know, instead of the Hunter. Then maybe we're not shooting and hunting lions.
[00:31:50] Tre'vell Anderson: As we wrap up, I would love if both of you just kind of like gave a message to our siblings out there in the community, something that you would like them to, to remember. Um, I'll start with Angelica.
[00:32:04] Angelica Ross: I will share a message that I share within my black community that is just as much true with Black and Brown trans people.
[00:32:13] Um, and it is equally as true with across the spectrum of LGBTQ plus folks. But when I think about that, there is no place where blackness does not exist. We are everywhere. And so I think the very same thing about trans people is just know that. Not only should we, as trans people know that we exist everywhere, but so should society, because they think that, that we are relegated to the margins.
[00:32:39] When I could be on the boat at that part, I could be at the restaurant waiting your table. I could be the doctor giving you your diagnosis. So we just have to know that trans people exist at all levels of society. And we deserve to exist.
[00:33:00] Laverne Cox: Amen. Amen. I would, I would say to my, to my siblings that worthiness has no prerequisite.
[00:33:08] There've been so many moments in my life where I was when I have, where I've said to myself, I'll be worthy after this, um, surgery, or I'll be worthy after this landmark and mentioned, it should not be worthy after this. But worthiness has no prerequisites. Worthiness is a birthright. You are worthy right now. No matter what stage of transition you're in, no matter where you are in your life, you're worthy to be here.
[00:33:30] You're worthy of love and you are lovable.
[00:33:34] Tre'vell Anderson: I love it. Well, thank you both for joining us for this conversation. We truly appreciate it.
[00:33:41] Laverne Cox: Thank you.
[00:33:41] Angelica Ross: Hmm, Thank you.
[00:33:46] Tre'vell Anderson: To read my full interview with Laverne and Angelica go to NetflixQueue.com. Every time I get a chance to sit down with those two lovely ladies, I feel like I'm always learning something from them.
[00:33:58] Krista Smith: You know, what I was thought was so amazing about that, doc is the. That they wanted trans people behind the camera and they were going to mentor people.
[00:34:11] You know, people that don't have access because it's so important. We want, we want all this visibility certainly screen, but to me, it's just as important. Behind the screen where you're not seeing, but how do you create that pipeline? How do you get people involved and how do you get marginalized communities and where there's no access to it?
[00:34:32] I just love that about what they did on “Disclosure.” Did you learn anything by talking to Angelica and Laverne that surprised you?
[00:34:41] Tre'vell Anderson: I mean, I think for me, I, I was really interested in the ways that they look back on that time period, where there was the Jerry Springer show and the Maury Povich show, and they would do all these different things of like trying to get the audience to decide, you know, who was trans and who was not.
[00:35:01] Um, and I did not know as Angelica says in the interview that she participated in some of those, you know, I guess competitions, if you will, um, that the Maury show did, um, in the way she talks about how while yes, it was exploitive. Um, it was also, you know, seen as an opportunity by trans folks to potentially, you know, get something else, right.
[00:35:27] To potentially be seen by the masses. And, you know, the ways in which we as marginalized communities, whether you're a woman or LGBTQ or Black or Brown, the ways we kind of make a way out of no way, right? The ways we take things that are, that are negative in some way, shape or form, but like try to spin it on its head as a means of opportunity for ourselves.
[00:35:50] Um, I was really just kind of captured by, um, both Laverne and Angelica's perspective on that. And I hope that this film right, gets us as an industry to think differently. Um, about celebrity, about responsibility, about visibility, um, both specifically in the context of trans imagery, but also when we're thinking of other communities as well.
[00:36:20] Krista Smith: “Disclosure” looks back at the histories of cinema and society while being firmly grounded in the here and now. Our next interview does that as well. I talked to writer and film critic, Chris Nashawaty about his fascinating essay for Queue about the year 1968. Both Spike Lee's “Da 5 Bloods” and Aaron Sorkin's “The Trial Of The Chicago 7” takes us back to 1968.
[00:36:45] You had societal turbulence, you had civil unrest, you had political unease, but you watch these movies and there's something completely contemporary about them. We discuss it all. And even how filmmakers of the future might look back on 2020.
[00:37:07] Well, Chris Nashawaty thank you for joining more like this. It's great to have you on, uh, you wrote an excellent essay for Netflix Queue about the importance of 1968. Not only politically, but cinematically in relation to 2020. But I want to ask you a couple of questions about you. What made you fall in love with movies?
[00:37:32] Chris Nashawaty: I just always been into them. My parents, um, would just park my brother and I in the movie theaters when they wanted to go shopping at the mall. And, uh, so we just saw everything and they were really, really liberal about, um, movie ratings. So at like really inappropriate ages, we saw R rated movies and I just fell in love with movies.
[00:37:53] And, um, wasn't sure that I would, you know, have a career writing about movies. Um, but when I finally did, I had seen so many movies that I found myself. Like I had done a lot of the legwork. I didn't go to film school, but I sort of feel like I've been in film school my whole life.
[00:38:12] Krista Smith: What was the first R rated movie that you remember seeing, or one that you were able to acknowledge that. This maybe wasn't appropriate.
[00:38:22] Chris Nashawaty: Um, dog day afternoon when I was like six, um, you know, it was just not the right movie to bring a six year old to, uh, but yeah. You know, they just had a lot of faith in, in my brother and I, that we would be able to figure out between the salty language and the violence that, you know, this was just a movie.
[00:38:43] And, um, so from that point on, it was, you know, they went into Jaws. We went to Jaws, we saw horror movies at a, at the wrong age. I mean, I saw Halloween in the theater when I was 10. Um, it just, they were really, today they would be shamed for the kind of parenting they did.
[00:39:01] Krista Smith: But back then it felt like anything goes well, let's talk about, uh, the essay that you wrote for Netflix Queue.
[00:39:08] Chris Nashawaty: The two movies I wrote about were, you know, two of the best movies I've seen this year, and that was spike Lee's “Da 5 Bloods” and Aaron Sorkin's “The Trial Of Chicago 7.” Um, so I think both politically and racially and these taking the streets. Protests that have been going on. Um, for the past few years, uh, really draw stark parallels between, um, ‘68 and 2020.
[00:39:32] And it's obviously not just pure coincidence that those two movies are being made and released right now. Um, they are about ‘68, but they're also about right now. Uh, and, and that's what filmmakers do, you know? They, they, they take, um, They can take subjects that may seem like, you know, yellowing, ancient history.
[00:39:55] Uh, but they really speak to us now as allegories. And I think these two movies do that brilliantly.
[00:40:00] Krista Smith: Hmm. What struck you most about “Da 5 Bloods” and you know, Spike's interpretation of that? His take on it?
[00:40:09] Chris Nashawaty: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there was obviously a wave of Vietnam pictures that came out in the seventies, um, like “The Deer Hunter” and “Coming Home” and “Apocalypse Now”, um, and those really told the war through the perspective of white soldiers.
[00:40:25] But when you actually look at, at Vietnam and who was doing the fighting, it was disproportionately relative to population, um, demographics, African-American soldiers. And that story hasn't been told, it's been told, but it hasn't been told enough. It feels like. We're seeing a war that seems very familiar, but through a different set of eyes and, and that makes it feel fresh.
[00:40:51] And, and the performance has really are, you know, it's really, um, a movie about, about race, about, you know, inequality, um, about the awakening of sort of black power and even the whole opening montage of the film where Spike goes through a lot of the most momentous news events and political leaders of the sixties and shows us, before we've even seen a moment of the film, just how loaded this period is in terms of what was going on in the country and just how.
[00:41:25] How turbulent it was. Um, so I really, I really thought that it was really beautifully made.
[00:41:32] Krista Smith: I, I completely agree. I think of what Aaron Sorkin did with “Chicago 7.” It was the same thing with, with then Walter, Cronkite's taking that actual footage and showing you what was happening in the newspapers and in those, in those newsreels, is so informative and it drops you right into the moment.
[00:41:50] And I know that a lot of young people that watch trial the “Chicago 7,” that didn't really know about it because it is one of those mythical things.
[00:41:58] Chris Nashawaty: And how long that trial went on. And, and really the, the sort of. The moment that's the most horrifying in the whole, in the whole movie is what they do to Bobby Seale, who shouldn't even be in that courtroom in the first place.
[00:42:11] I mean, he sort of added on to the, to these seven defendants because he's supposed to be scary to, to the jury, um, because he's a Black Panther and, you know, he obviously is being railroaded in, in the, in the trial. And when he stands up for himself, You know, they, they eventually shackle him to the chair and basically binding gag him.
[00:42:36] And it's like, it makes you sort of queasy watching it because the symbolism of slavery is just so overwhelming. Um, so I thought that that was really handled well in the movie too.
[00:42:51] Krista Smith: well, let's talk about what was going on in cinema at that time. So in 2020, we're watching. “Da 5 Bloods” and Aaron Sorkin's trial of “Chicago Seven.”
[00:43:01] What were audiences watching back in 1968?
[00:43:05] Chris Nashawaty: Well, I mean, it's funny because this is really the late sixties were real, um, seismic. Turning point in Hollywood, you know, the old studios, uh, for a long time had been churning out a lot of really middlebrow movies. Like, you know, the sound of music and “Chitty, Chitty, Bang, Bang,” and, and, and, you know, old fashioned musicals and period pictures.
[00:43:27] But in ‘67, Which are the movies that would be celebrated at the Oscars in ‘68, you finally have the first wave of what would become known as the New Hollywood. These are all movies that tackled either what was going on racially or politically in the country, not overtly, but like it, you know, in a very sort of.
[00:43:47] Metaphorical way in some cases. So you've got movies like “The Graduate,” um, you've got movies like “Bonnie and Clyde.” Uh, you've got movies like “In The Heat Of The Night,” which ended up winning best picture.
[00:43:59] Krista Smith: Right. And it also kind of created a huge movie star in Sidney Poitier
[00:44:03] Chris Nashawaty: yeah. I mean, Sidney Poitier was probably probably the only actor who could have pulled that off at the time.
[00:44:09] Um, because by 1967 and ‘68, he was, Hollywood's not only Hollywood's. Most famous black leading man. He was the most acceptable to white audiences. Do you know what I mean? He actually physically strikes a white man and you're supposed to cheer for him. You know, there's very few actors who could have pulled that off and made white on audiences, not walk out of the theater, but actually sort of empathize with that character.
[00:44:43] Krista Smith: And go on to win an Oscar. Okay. So it's 2020. What kind of movies are we going to be seeing and what are we going to be seen? And, and 2040, or even 2030 or 2050? I mean, what, what do you think. The artists right now are going to be reflecting back to us in 20 years.
[00:45:07] Chris Nashawaty: Well, I think, you know, I, I don't think it's anyone who's watching this knows the sort of times that we're living through their crazy. And you know, between the pandemic and the Black Lives Matter movement and the election that we've just gone through and are still kind of going through, um, You know, this has been a crazy crazy year and I have no doubt that, um, the next time that society, American society grapples with issues of race, um, political corruption, um, any sort of hot button political issues, they're going to look back to right now and they're going to use this moment as a springboard to convey whatever it is they want to convey, um, through
[00:45:53] the world we're living through right now. So I assume that, that we haven't seen the last of 2020, even as we, we move on from it. It's going to be with us for a while.
[00:46:03] Krista Smith: Well, it's great talking to you, Chris. And, uh, for anybody that wants to read more about the parallels between 1968 and 2020, please go to Netflix Queue.
[00:46:12] That's Q U E U E. And for more on the “Chicago Seven,” there is the official “Chicago Seven” podcast series. Thanks so much. It was great talking to you, Chris.
[00:46:23] Chris Nashawaty: Thank you. It was a pleasure.
[00:46:27] Krista Smith: That was so interesting. You know, there's so many things I didn't think about. 1968 and, and how the parallels just line up to 2020. Um, but then I forgot about “In The Heat Of The Night” and it was so interesting that that movie was the one that won the Oscar with all those others, you know, compared to
[00:46:48] Dr. Doolittle and Bonnie and Clyde, that it was that film that so specifically dealt with race and in the South. Uh, and of course, It was Sidney Portier who, who really brought that film home. Um, do you have a favorite, uh, Sydney movie?
[00:47:04] Tre'vell Anderson: Shout now to Lorraine Hansberry? I'm going to go with A Raisin In The Sun.
[00:47:09] Um, the film, um, I think that was like early sixties or something like that. And he played the lead, um, which is a role that like, I guess like other people have done to having Danny Glover, did it, Denzel Washington did it at a point, Diddy, I'm going to go with “A Raisin In The Sun” again for how kind of specific it was about kind of the black experience during that time period.
[00:47:34] Krista Smith: Excellent film. You know, we're here to share these stories that otherwise would never be told all of us. And I think about it from you to me, to “Mank” to “Disclosure,” to Chris Nashawaty piece, it all comes back to the same thing. Moving forward while we're reflecting on what came before.
[00:47:51] Tre'vell Anderson: You know, it, it reminds me of something.
[00:47:54] My granny used to say, um, she was a South Carolina pastor. Okay. And she used to just say, you can't know where you're going until, you know, from whence you came. I love that.
[00:48:06] Krista Smith: So true. Um, I kinda want to know more about your granny, but we'll save that for another episode. [Tre’vell laughs] Okay. All right. Well, we're nearing the end of the show, which makes me so sad, but it also means it's time for, for what it's worth.
[00:48:23] At the end of all my conversations, I always ask whoever I'm interviewing, what advice they have. And this week we're going to share our favorite gem from Amanda Seyfried.
[00:48:36] Amanda Seyfried: I don't think there are any failures and it's not easy not to look at rejection or, or. A challenge that feels impossible. It's not easy not to look at that as a failure, but I do believe every single thing that happens to you is, is just as a rung on the ladder.
[00:48:58] Everybody has a different way of getting there. You can't ever mirror your path to someone else's. Everything is unique. And just because you're experiencing failure or what you think is failure right now does not have a say in how, how you succeed.
[00:49:23] Tre'vell Anderson: You know, the idea of like redefining failure, I'm actually going to, I'm going to quote my granny again for you. Uh, um, and she used to say, a setback ain't nothing but preparation for your come up, right? As a way of, of just like not getting down on yourself, when something doesn't go your way or you mess up when you make a mistake, but like, realize that it's all in service of some, some positive, some benefit that you will reap later on.
[00:49:52] Krista Smith: Hmm. I got to remind myself of that every day. Yes. Well Tre’vell thank you so much for being on the show and
Tre'vell Anderson: Thanks for having me
Krista Smith: it's so it's just so great to talk with you and I can't wait until you come back. Uh, but in the meantime, can you let people know where to find you and, and anything else that you've got going on that I don't know about that I want to know about.
[00:50:14] Tre'vell Anderson: Sure. Um, so I'm on the social medias @ Tre’vell Anderson my name on Twitter at @Rayzhon, R A Y Z H O N on Instagram. That's my middle name for those who are wondering. Um, and then, you know, if you like the good, good that you're hearing in your ears right now that I'm giving you, you can check out my own podcast.
[00:50:34] It's called Fanti F A N T I, wherever you get slay worthy audio. We like to have complex and complicated conversations about the gray areas in our lives. That's our little tagline. Um, and so, yeah. Check us out.
[00:50:48] Krista Smith: Oh, all I want to be a slay worthy. Goals.
[00:50:52] Tre'vell Anderson: You're already there Krista.
[00:50:57] Krista Smith: Oh, one rung on that ladder, babe.
[00:50:59] Well, that's our show. Join us next time. When the one and only George Clooney stops by to discuss “Midnight Sky” along with a few other special guests. All the films and series discussed today are streaming on Netflix for more on Amanda Seyfried, Laverne Cox, Angelica, Ross, and Chris Nashawaty. Head over to Netflix Queue.com and follow us on Instagram and Twitter.
[00:51:24] Don't forget to subscribe, rate, review, and share. Listen in next time for “More Like This.”